Appendix talk:Greek metatheses


 * Μπορώ να σας ζητήσω βοήθεια; Προσπαθώ να βρω άλλα παραδείγματα αυτού του φαινομένου. Βρήκα σαρμάκο/σαμάρκο εδώ αλλά τη δεύτερη λέξη δεν είμαι σίγουρος που υπάρχει. Τι νομίζετε; --Barytonesis (talk) 21:59, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Και έχει διαφορά ανάμεσα σε "μετάθεση" και "αντιμετάθεση"; --Barytonesis (talk) 22:00, 1 November 2017 (UTC)¨

from sarri: Bary  I'm checking now, and i will come with more examples for you.
 * σαρμάκο NOT found at dict. Babiniotis or Dimitrakos
 * σαμάρκο NOT found at dict. Babiniotis or Dimitrakos
 * have no idea what they mean,
 * About σαρμάκο, there is this: "Σαρμάκο": Η σπάνια αυτή λέξη που δεν υπάρχει σε κανένα λεξικό έρχεται να ενώσει τα ρεμπέτικα με την ενετοκρατία. Πράγματι, είναι πολύ οικεία στους φίλους του ρεμπέτικου επειδή υπάρχει στον τίτλο ενός τραγουδιού του Βαμβακάρη, ο Μάρκος κάνει σαρμάκο. Υπάρχει και νεορεμπέτικη κομπανία με το όνομα Σαρμάκο. “Κάνω σαρμάκο” σημαίνει “στέκομαι αμίλητος προσοχή, αποφεύγω να εκδηλωθώ”. Στο τραγούδι ο Μάρκος βλέπει την αγαπημένη του με άλλον, αλλά “κάνει σαρμάκο”, “κάνει το κορόιδο” ας πούμε." --Barytonesis (talk) 16:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * from sarri !!! I'm impressed. Are you making a list of rare idiomatic words...


 * metathesis μετάθεση = any change of position.
 * antimetathesis αντιμετάθεση = the MUTUAL change of position of 2 things.
 * Ναι, έχουμε καλές αντίστοιχες λέξεις στα γαλλικά·, , αλλά στα αγγλικά δεν ξέρω. --Barytonesis (talk) 16:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * μετάθεση at Babiniotis.1998: verbatim
 * VERBATIM EXCERPT ...4. ΓΛΩΣΣ. η αλλαγή τής θέσης γραμμάτων, συλλαβών ή φθόγγων μέσα στην ίδια λέξη κατά την γραφή ή την προφορά της, λ.χ. φούχτα, χούφτα || καράφλα, φαλάκρα ΦΡ. (στην αρχαία ελληνική) μετάθεση ποσότητας ή αντιμεταχώριση.
 * TRANS.eng: 4. LINGUISTICS: the change of position of letters, syllables, or phthongi/sounds inside one word, at its script or pronunciation, e.g. φούχτα, χούφτα || καράφλα, φαλάκρα PHRASE (in ancient greek) quantitive metathesis or antimetachorisis. [trans.note: i'm sure there are valid linguistic terms here]
 * It's quantitative metathesis in English. --Barytonesis (talk) 16:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * αντιμετάθεση at Babiniotis.1998.
 * VERBATIM EXCERPTS: αντιμετάθεση, η (μεταγενέστερο) [κ. αντιμεταθέσ-εως, -εις, -εων] 1. η αμοιβαία αλλαγή θέσεως, η αμοιβαία μετάθεση. [.....] <B>3</B>. ΓΛΩΣΣ: (α) η αμοιβαία αλλαγή θέσεως δύο διαδοχικών φθόγγων, λ.χ. <I>γουρσούζης-γρουσούζης</I> (β) <B>αντιμετάθεση χρόνου</B> ή αντιμεταχώρηση (βλ.λ.). -<B>αντιμεταθέτω</B> ρ. [μεταγενέστερο].
 * TRANS.eng: <B>αντιμετάθεση=antimetathesis</B>, η (posterior [?]) [κ. αντιμεταθέσ-εως, -εις, -εων] <B>1.</B> the mutual change of placing/position, the mutual metathesis. [.....] <B>3</B>. LINGUISTICS: (a) the mutual interchanging of position of two consequtive phongus/sounds e.g. <I>γουρσούζης-γρουσούζης</I> <I>[trans.note ?a person who brings bad luck]</I> (β) <B>αντιμετάθεση χρόνου=quantitive antimetathesis</B> or αντιμεταχώρηση=antimetachorisis (see word). -<B>αντιμεταθέτω=transpose, commute</B> verb [posterior]. ---trans.note: μεταγενέστερος = posterior?? hysteron? at Babiniotis Abbreviations = 3rd century BC to 6th century AC
 * μετάθεση from my old school-grammar, Tzartzanos, 1979
 * ... i m coming back soon. with examples.

from sarri 5 minutes later: oh. I just saw that there are here already metathesis etc. so I ll come back with more examples.<BR> from sarri 1 hour later: YOUR LIST in 2017.11.01:
 * maybe put in alphabetical order?
 * is the pair in chronological order? first the older version, then the product of metathesis.
 * some, are strictly ancient greek?
 * my notes in brackets. The uncommented words, i need to check in dictionaries. Can i hide my marginalia for sources? A hide-show thing? e.g. in an entry, i would like the documentation of what is written, but NOT to view it in-text.
 * Yes, it's possible to do that; you have to write " " after, so:
 * αλυχτώ–ὑλακτῶ = ὑλακτῶ - ὑλαχτῶ - ἀλυχτῶ [sequence as in Tzartzanos.1979&sect;32.2] - αλυχτώ.
 * χούφτα–φούχτα = φούχτα - χούφτα [as in Babiniotis1998]
 * καραφλός–φαλακρός, καράφλα-φαλάκρα [as in Babiniotis1998]
 * φαιλόνης–φαινόλης [this is gre.anc.]
 * σκερπάνι–σκεπάρνι [i checked the wikt. entry; it IS alternative, but σκεπάρνι is the older coming from anc σκεπάρνιον. ]
 * πλακουτσωτός–πλατσουκωτός
 * τσαγκρουνώ–τσουγκρανώ
 * είνορο–όνειρο [both gre.modern. in script.gre.polytonic:  ὄνειρο - εἴνορο [Tzartzanos.1979&sect;32.2] ]
 * βρούτσα–βούρτσα
 * καμηλαύκι–καλημαύκι
 * πουρνό–πρωινό [ πρωινό-πουρνό Here we have more 'πάθη' =? (Smyth says 'changeσ') of vowels. need to check them. Possible sequence: πρωί - πρωινό > προυινό > προυνό -πουρνό]
 * τούρλα–τρούλος [there are NOT same words. turla = a bump, a hill. troulos = the dome of a temple. The are not a pair. The antimetathesis in trula came from latin, not within greek].
 * πουρνάρι–πρινάρι [also, here more types of changes, also, the πρινάρι is used in local idioms]


 * MORE PAIRS with METATHESIS for you
 * Μυτιλήνη-Μιτυλήνη [Tzartzanos.1979&sect;32.2: metathesis] (name of the island of Lesbos).
 * Δανούβιος-Δούναβις [Tzartzanos.1979&sect;32.2: metathesis] (gre.old-gre.mod)
 * Πνύκα = Πύκνα [ancient greek names of the hill Pnyka of Athens]
 * Ιθάκη-Θιάκι [Ιθάκη (gre.anc, and in gre.mod. usual name of the island Ithaca) - Θιάκι (gre.mod only, used in locall idioms, or poetically)]


 * are you doing any PAIRS of words
 * PAIRS with aphomiosis:
 * ἅτερος > ἕτερος [gre.anc. Type έτερος also in gre.mod]
 * Ἐρχομενός > Ὀρχομενός [=name of a town] [gre.anc. Second type is in use in gre.mod]
 * ὀβελός > ὀβολός [gre.anc. Second type is in use in gre.mod]
 * Do you do PAIRS with CHANGES of vowel quality, but which do not mean the same thing?
 * λέγω - λόγος· βρέχω - βροχή· ἀμείβω - ἀμοιβή· λείπω - λέλοιπα, λοιπός· σπεύδω - σπουδή·  ῥήγνυμι - ῥωγμή
 * Ναι, αλλά όχι εδώ· δείτε αυτή την κατηγορία παρακαλώ: Category:Ancient Greek words suffixed with -η (o-grade) --Barytonesis (talk) 16:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * from sarri : (sorry for my messy wikitxtwriting). This category suffixes with ή? e.g. 'αγορά'? What do you mean? sarri.greek (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * well, that issue is not completely settled, but etymologically it makes sense to have "-ά" and "-ή" together, because "-ή" = "-ά" behind "ε, ι, ρ" (in Attic); it's still the same suffix, only under a different form (allomorph). Cf. the Ionian form . See this discussion. --Barytonesis (talk) 22:29, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * sarri to So you love categories and lists. Well, sorry i cannot really help, except as a layman: if I needed Lists? There are two paths, τα εξής τρία.


 * 1. starting from the standard-grammars-categorizing. For every κλίση/category/law and sub-category and sub-sub-category, you make a list adding words. The <B>production</B> of root+suffix or the <B>law</B> of production is the key, and becomes the heading (επικεφαλίδα) of the list. Even a unique exception is a sub-sub-sub-category in itself. DIFFICULT: the correspondence of ancient-modern words in the same group.
 * 2. starting from the visual aspect: what one sees written. You group them by criterion of εμφάνιση, e.g. xxxά group. More like a list of rhyming words.  Then you may subgroup them xxxκά, xxxμά, xxxρά... You do not bother about grammar.   xxxή is a different group. Again, you ignore diacritics. Doesn't matter if anc. or mod. greek.
 * 3. starting from the sound: αίxxxx and έxxx are in the same [e]xxx group. κακέ & κακαί are in the same group. etc...
 * So, as a reader, I need to know at a glance: are you doing type 1 or type 2 lists? sarri.greek (talk) 03:55, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


 * LINKS
 * vowel.consChanges.Gre.Anc by Γιάννης Παπαθανασίου just found it.
 * That's a very nice link! --Barytonesis (talk) 16:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * gre.ancGrammarOfficial
 * google#πάθη φωνηέντων μετάθεση
 * If i find more metatheses pairs, i'll send them to you. sarri.greek (talk) 00:35, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

AGr. yes φαιλόνης–φαινόλης
from sarri to yes, the words are gre.mod. Here is what I found at Babiniotis.1998 TYPING VERBATIM for your lemmata-collection (I keep them too). [MY fillings in brackets checked in his abbreviations page]:
 * φαιλόνιο (το) [φαιλον-ίου / -ων] ΕΚΚΛΗΣ[ΙΑ] ο μανδύας χωρίς μανίκια, τον οποίο φορούν εξωτερικά οι κληρικοί. [ΕΤΥΜ. < μτγν. φαιλόνιον, υποκοριστικό τού φαιλόνης (ὁ) < φαινόλης (με αντιμετάθεση συμφώνων), λ[έξη] τού καθημερινού λεξιλογίου, που προέρχεται από το αρχ[αίο] ρ[ήμα] φαίνω / -ομαι και το καταληκτικό επίθημα -όλης].
 * --where μτγν = μεταγενέστερος, -η, -ο ενν[οείται] ελλην[ικός, -ή, -ό] (3ος αιώνας π.Χ. - 6ος αιώνας μ.Χ.)
 * --τού [sic], he liked accenting those, in 1998.
 * --So, yes it is AGr? what do you call 3rd c.BC to 6th AC? in wiktionary terminology.

There is also a lemma φαινόλη, the chemical thing.<BR> Can I ref. to you here? or is this still a private-work? Ta-ra. sarri.greek (talk) 04:25, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes you can, nothing is really private on a wiki! Also, I've left several of your questions unanswered, but I'm not forgetting them, I'll try to answer them later. --Barytonesis (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You are very kind, don't bother, i get answers little by little. By the way, these words are inspired by your greek pairs. sarri.greek (talk) 21:50, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

some more
Lost ! Got some new ones here. I don't think you have them. They are: Until your next name.. sarri.greek (talk) 08:35, 17 January 2018 (UTC) Yes Bary, Moving to yout other list, your other name now. sarri.greek (talk) 01:57, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * – metathesis
 * – antimetathesis
 * – metathesis+haplopoeisis?
 * – DIFF ety. (αμαρτωλός . αμαρτία=sin - αρματωλός < άρματα=weapons)
 * about ήρεμος - ήμερος I have not checked. DSMG stops at Hellenistic and anc.