Module talk:be-verb

Automatic conjugation is live
now exists and supports classes 1 through 6. The remaining classes are coming. You can see various examples at User:Benwing2/test-be-conj; if you have questions about what things mean, let me know. Benwing2 (talk) 22:52, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I converted most manual declensions for classes 1 through 6 to use . Benwing2 (talk) 03:28, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Brilliant, man! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:02, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It may take a little longer to get the remaining classes. I have to rethink and restructure the way I handle vowel alternations and haven't completely figured out the best way. Belarusian vowel alternations are annoying, esp. since there are exceptions where at least э and ё can occur in unstressed syllables. (Maybe о as well, in syllables with secondary stress?) Benwing2 (talk) 20:55, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Take your time, mate. Your efforts are appreciated. I am not sure about verbs but borrowed nouns may have unstressed о and ё and not just in final positions in Taraškievica orthography, e.g. or, normally . These are rare though.
 * "э" might happen a lot in unstressed positions but does it happen a lot in pre-tonal positions? Probably just loanwords? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:44, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have rewritten the handling of vowel alternations in the module and added class 7 support. The remaining classes should be fairly easy now. What I do now is first reconstruct (as much as is possible) the underlying vowels and do all the manipulations/stress movements on this form, and then at the very end convert to the surface representation. Benwing2 (talk) 04:08, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Aha, I see. You're using the original Proto-Slavic vowels and then applying akanye, akanye and de-iotification (using a noun analogy - roughly рѣка́->река́->ряка́->рака́) rules? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's basically what I'm doing. What I was doing previously was trying to account for vowel changes when I moved the stress from one place to another, which was a lot more complicated and didn't work very well. Benwing2 (talk) 04:19, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. If you use this logic, you may find it a little bit easier to deal with Belarusian nouns if you want to tackle them in the future. In a way, they are simpler than Ukrainian, there are similarities, like you'll have to use genu occasionally and you're already familiar with some some other alternations like нага́/назе́/но́гі. I don't know if your commons cover weird changes like брыво́->бро́вы, кроў->крыві́. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:41, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Not yet, I'll have to add a flag for those cases. Benwing2 (talk) 04:47, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would require a new param, IMO, just like you you use io, ie, etc. in Ukrainian. Also, just occurred to me, that there's a rule you could use. Native Belarusian words can't start with "о", that's why you get акно́->во́кны, во́зера->азёры, аўца́->во́ўцы. I have just fixed, which I had to Google for forms before. is the regular modern term. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:58, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * All the remaining classes should be done, and all irregular verbs except быць (compounds of быць like забы́ць are correctly handled). Benwing2 (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much!

I noticed that has two present tense adverbials and бегучы́ and бягу́чы. бягу́чы is also a present tense participle. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed the present adverbial participles. I'm not sure what to do with the present active participle бягу́чы. The module doesn't currently support present active participles at all. I could add them although they must be rare. Do you know of any other examples of present active participles? Benwing2 (talk) 03:44, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There's little info on this, unfortunately. Perhaps this can be optional, parameterised, other examples: ве́раваць->ве́руючы, утвара́ць->утвара́ючы. Like in Ukrainian, there is a perception that present active participles are not used, so that Russian "делающий" should be translated as "які робіць". Note that the candidate "ро́бячы" coincides with the adverbial. I can try and find more examples. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Present active participles are often perceived as adjectives, despite the origin (same in Ukrainian) e.g. пі́шучы (writing), hence (typewriter). Pure adjectives are пісо́ўны, піса́льны. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:05, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I added support for present active participles. You can add them using a parameter pres_actv_part, e.g. . Benwing2 (talk) 05:58, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I did another run converting verbs to use . There are only 22 verbs left that use, and another 55 that use (of these, 53 have a comment next to them indicating the automatic parameters to supply to ; they need to be checked as some could be wrong). Benwing2 (talk) 07:08, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll work with them.
 * inflections can used as is now but modularised and has an alternative  form. Including Taraškievica forms (such as ) in the tables might be a mess. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:18, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

валачы

 * Hi. At User:Benwing2/test-be-conj in the case for the present tense forms валаче́ш, валаче́, валачём, валачяце́ are incorrect and should be валачэ́ш, валачэ́, валачо́м, валачаце́.

ч [t͡ʂ] is always hard in Belarusian. The impossible combinations are any of 1) [чшжр][еёіьюя], 2) final -в, 3) probably ў + vowel (apostrophe ' is OK).

I've created anyway since I hope it's a quick fix for you :)

BTW (unrelated), if you're not doing it already, we want any words with ґ tracked. In Taraškievica this letter is sometimes "allowed" but not mandatory. (It's only standard in Ukrainian and Rusyn) There are cases where a regular г can be pronounced as [ɡ] in loanwords with no change in spellings and there are positions where it's considered correct to pronounce, pls see Module_talk:be-pronunciation. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:40, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed the issue with валачы́. ў + vowel does occur in the present-tense forms of вы́віць. I can add a category for tracking Belarusian words with ґ. Benwing2 (talk) 00:48, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Ah, yes ў + vowel - should only be iotated е, ё, ю, я, not а, о, і, у, ы. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:53, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Special case for ілгаць / лгаць

 * Hi. Thank you for creating the complex module for Belarusian verbs. It's really good!

This verb ілгаць / лгаць is a special case and maybe merits more attention.


 * 1) As you labelled in the comments, it's irregular in the present tense, like the Russian equivalent.
 * 2) It doesn't use і/й alternation but drops "і" after vowels instead. So it should show "бу́дзе лга́ць" (not йлга́ць).
 * 3) There may be some other examples but the same alternations is in the noun  when the vowel is reduced, e.g. "under the ice" is "пад ільдо́м" (or "пад лёдам").
 * 4) Are you interested in adding a special treatment for this verb? If not, I will keep manual but the future tense needs an override to remove "й" where it's not correct. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:58, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yup, I'll add some special casing for this verb. Benwing2 (talk) 02:17, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, please let me know if the usage notes or examples need tweaking. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:25, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Almost there, thanks! Just need that й/0 to work. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's working now. I changed the і/й alternation code to drop і before л/р + consonant after a vowel, and conversely to add і before л/р + consonant after a consonant. This should handle (і)рваць as well. Benwing2 (talk) 03:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for addressing this and another case! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Another case is (і)ржаць (an noun (і)ржа)! I will add any missing entries soon. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:52, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And yet another one is (і)граць. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I've created missing entries here - just as normal and alt forms. If you decide to add handling for this alternation, I will add usage notes as in ілгаць / лгаць. I don't know if there are other examples. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:29, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * (і)граць is strange; it doesn't fit the phonological pattern of (і)лгаць/(і)ржаць/etc. There are examples in Slounik where іграць occurs after a vowel and граць after a consonant so I'm not sure this alternation is real:
 * Гаворыць як у скрыпку іграе, а робіць як у разбіты збан бразгае.
 * Эх, ды каб пайсці са сваёй скрыпкай у родную вёску, а там граць, граць да ахмялення, да адурэння, да сёмага поту. Бядуля.
 * цяпер, паводле Маркса, пачынаюць граць самастойную ролю, робяцца нібы незалежнымі фактарамі тых дачыненняў і вызначаюць стасункі паміж асобамі;
 * Benwing2 (talk) 00:35, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Good findings, thanks. You can add only to those you think are appropriate, if there are any. On the other hand, a preferred way to use these alternatives, IMO, would be following the same rule for sound harmony. I'm sure it's easy to find examples where ў/у rule is broken. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * A good test for my theory would be "ён іграе" and "яна грае" but it fails. The reverse usages are common as well. You're right about (і)граць. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:53, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

раіць - 4b (etym #2)

 * Hi. Per edit summary in etym #2: Is "longimp" supposed to make long imperatives? Can't get раі́/раі́це on etym #2. Another example is  (*dojiti) where imperatives can be дой or даі́. Please assist if you can. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:25, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. The logic was ignoring longimp in verbs whose stem ends in a vowel. Benwing2 (talk) 00:43, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I will try and . Interesting that Ukrainian  and  don't have long imperatives. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks like some such Ukrainian verbs, like рої́ти, строї́ти, труї́ти, do have long imperatives. For Ukrainian I implemented a special flag 'ї' to signal these imperatives. Probably just using 'longimp' would be better. Benwing2 (talk) 00:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Perhaps yes. 'longimp' doesn't seem to work with Ukrainian. I've made using . (not sure about the stress at ppp)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:41, 5 August 2020 (UTC)