Module talk:ru-adjective-old

Genitive ending
Since we transliterate by pronunciation, shouldn't the -аго ending be transliterated as -evo too? 22:30, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have yet to find a source saying how the "-аго/-яго" ending was pronounced back then. It would seem odd to me if words like "золота́го" were pronounced /zəlɐˈtavə/ rather than /zəlɐˈtovə/, however I have searched for this information in several 19th century and early 20th century Russian grammars and none of them mention the "а" in this ending being pronounced as "о", even when going into detail about the pronunciations of every letter including the effect of stress on the vowel sounds. --WikiTiki89 22:41, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * But surely the pronunciation didn't suddenly change when the spelling did? Also, -ogo and -ego are the historically original Proto-Slavic endings, so the -ago ending could only have formed later. It's possible that a dialectal form (St. Petersburg?), and that it's composed of the noun genitive -a + -go, by analogy. Slovene and Serbo-Croatian modified the ending in a similar way, but they changed the last vowel instead, giving -ega. 22:48, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that has always puzzled me. I also think that it was most likely always pronounced /o/. It may have been written with "а" under the influence of the short-form genitive, but then I don't understand why "-ому" wasn't written "-уму". --WikiTiki89 22:52, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, Proto-Slavic didn't have "-ogo", it only had "-ajego". --WikiTiki89 22:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Not on adjectives, but some pronouns had -ogo. I think that explains the Russian -a- at least. But why would they have replaced it with -o- later? When unstressed they're the same, but the ending isn't always unstressed is it? 23:05, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Those pronouns were written with "-ого" even in the old orthography. "-аго" was only for adjectives. --WikiTiki89 23:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * And regarding the "g" vs "v" sounds, there are dialects to this day that still pronounce the "г" normally in "-ого/-его" endings (in most of these dialects, "г" is pronounced /ɣ/). --WikiTiki89 22:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems to me like we should just stick to "g" then, for both older and modern Russian. 23:05, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. --WikiTiki89 23:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Please don't. It's probably OK to transliterate older Russian with "g" as it's the ecclesiastic and historical pronunciation as in Old East Slavic. "золота́го" was pronounced with /g/. Pronunciation of "г" as /ɣ/ or /ɦ/, including in the adjective endings is common in Ukrainian and South Russian but this is non-standard. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:13, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right that it's nonstandard, but it exists. This is not a dictionary of only "standard Russian", it should encompass all dialects. --WikiTiki89 23:22, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * But the transliteration is based on standard and most common norms, not just for Russian. Please don't use dialectal or old pronunciation as another pretext to open that can of worms. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:33, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That can of worms has never been closed. The issue has never been settled. I only comply with it because it is our current practice and consistency is important. --WikiTiki89 23:37, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * [EC] It's only a can of worms because it's an issue that keeps coming back in some form or another. The issues aren't going to go away until they're actually solved properly, and it's not as if we keep bringing the topic back up all the time on purpose. It's the issue that just keeps surfacing because it hasn't been solved, and we keep running into new issues. In this case, it was the transliteration of -ago, next time it could be something else. All of this could be avoided if we didn't try to base a transliteration on any particular dialect, but on the spelling. Then there would be no question: -ogo and -ago would be the transliterations. 23:45, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I know keep raising this topic about Russian, as if it's the only language that has phonetic exceptions rendered in transliteration. I know it would be easier for ignore any differences and just use automatic transliteration. I strongly believe we shouldn't do this for many reasons I have explained multiple times. I'm leaving this discussion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:04, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I wonder if there are any audio recordings of Russian from before WWI. I'm sure they recorded stuff back then, but don't know where to look. --WikiTiki89 23:22, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * You can try and search for some prayers, liturgies or something similar where Old Church Slavonic and Old East Slavic forms are still used (usually mixed with modern Russian) (no-one refers to those terms as such, just "Old" or "Ancient Russian", like in "госуда́рь/господа́рь всея́ Руси"). It's sometimes shown in the movies about old times. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:33, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * But that's not what I am looking for. I am looking for the spoken Russian of that time, not Church Slavonic. --WikiTiki89 23:37, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, inserting ancient words and pronouncing /g/ was just a flavour that was added to the speech. /v/ is relatively new but it's definitely not just before the beginning of 20th century but earlier. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:04, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I was hoping there could be such an example in Боже, Царя храни!, the national anthem of the Russian Empire but there isn't. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:42, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * [EC] There may be some recordings of Lenin too, although I don't think the quality would be great. 23:45, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have listened to recordings of Lenin before, but since Lenin was a reformer, he obviously pronounced things according to the reforms. I'm hoping for a more conservative pronunciation such as what could have been in "Боже, Царя Храни!" if it had had any genitive endings. --WikiTiki89 23:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Lenin pronounced "/v/" as most educated Russians did at that time, except for priests and southerners. I've heard many times. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:04, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Lenin was a reformer, but I doubt he would have "talked like a book" when speaking to the people. He would probably have used everyday Russian of the common worker, to express solidarity with them. 00:09, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you understood me backwards. Lenin reformed the spelling to bring it closer to pronunciation and to remove letters that he thought were redundant. What I wanted was to hear a recording of the educated elite who did talk like a book. I have a very hard time imagining even them using the pronunciation /zəlɐˈtagə/. --WikiTiki89 00:14, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I found one instance of "золотаго" being misspelled as "золотово" in 1889. --WikiTiki89 17:32, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see it anywhere on that page, I just get an overview of the book, no content. But if it's true that's pretty strong evidence for the pronunciation -ovo even despite the spelling -ago. 17:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Strange, I get a full preview of the page. Not only that, but it also offers me the free Ebook. But I agree that this is good evidence that -ovo existed, and was probably the most common. But it does not rule out that -avo, -ago, or -ogo were also used. --WikiTiki89 17:45, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Since you can't see it, I'll quote it. Near the top of the page it says:
 * въ вигризской земли стрѣтили золотаго царя (Алтынъ-хана)
 * And near the bottom it says:
 * съ радостью и до золотово царя Кунканчея.
 * --WikiTiki89 17:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)