Reconstruction talk:Illyrian/rhinos

RFD discussion: August 2019–March 2020
No descendants or derived terms given. —Rua (mew) 21:29, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * @Rua; the entry has a reference, in which it is mentioned that Albanian "re" and illyrian "rhinos" are etymologically identical. So why excatly should this entry be delted? Bc Albanian "ren" derived from illyrian "rhinos"?IMIPER (talk) 22:12, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Because one does not see from the entry on which grounds one assumes that this form existed. Delete. Fay Freak (talk) 23:11, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Some descendants have now been added. However, there is insufficient evidence to support these descendants. Per Albanian language, there is insufficient evidence to connect Albanian and Illyrian. Moreover, it's not even clear whether Illyrian was a single language. —Rua (mew) 09:08, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Not clear?...insufficient evidence? ... there is insufficient evidence to connect Albanian and Illyrian? | Uhm, outside Wiki-world there are no suchs things as "insufficient evidence" and no "there is insufficient evidence to connect Albanian and Illyrian" when speaking of Alb/Illyr. Officially Albanian is connected to illyrian; this is not only based on linguistics (most linguists are PRO-Alb-Illyr origin) - but also genetics & etc. So all that 'insufficient evidence' crap is clearly not the truth. But who's that linguist that has all that power to speak for all? To speak in the name of Albanology and all Albanologists? That person does not exist. So the ultimate theory is the one that is supported by most Albanologists. And that would be that Alb. derived from illyrian. But Albanophobia seem to be deep rooted in Wiki. Quoting ridiculous claims from politically motivated self-proclaimed 'Linguists' and 'Historians'; claims that were further spread by Wiki editors and admins. Let's go back to the guy who connected illyrian with albanian: the first one was a swedish guy. Before that skipetaria/illyricum was already also a thing. Until central/western europe. powers started to deny an existence of an Albanian nation (by calling them f.e. "Bergtürken" aka "mountain turks", like some german dude called Otto). Since then quite a lot slavic and german linguists were dealing with Albanology. Worth to mention when speaking of Albanology: studies from certain (older) Albanoligist 'disappeared' (how?). One was even murdered. IF we're really talking about 'insufficient evidence' and this would be really the truth - then why was is 'worth it' to murder an Albanologist? Worth to steal their work? Who would actually go that far if there would be 'nothing', no evidence? What is this actually? A trying to exclude albanian, illyrian and messapic from indo-european? Trying to make Messapic a "hellenic dialect"? Albanian entries, esp. related to illyrian, are non-stop being deleted. The entries without sources: that's fine, they should be deleted. But why also the entries with sources? The entry is sourced. Albanian 're' is - according to Orel and other linguistis - etymologically identical to illyrian and messapic rhinos. Orel also connects it with further cognates. Fay Freak: obviously it is very hard for you to stay neutral. You we're also complaining about the entry of "škip" (older form of "shqip"). Why is this entry even making you so upset? Illyrian RHINOS existed; it is still preserved in Albanian (as "re(n)"). It derived from illyrian. I dare you to find ONE single source, where a linguist states that illyrian rhinos did "not" exist.SKA-KSI (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I dare you to make it plausible that this Illyrian word existed, and from which forms in which languages one can reconstruct the form “rhinos”. Oh, and what sounds does ⟨rh⟩ even stand for? The reference does not remedy that there is no discernible reason for this word. Why can’t you make entries that do not make us upset? Fay Freak (talk) 21:06, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Us? Warum "uns"? xD "uns" wie = mehrere Persönlichkeiten oder "uns" wie = du sprichst für andere? Auch egal. Wann willst du eigtl. mal meine Fragen beantworten? Oder darf man dich nichts fragen? Du(/Ihr) kannst(/könnt) es von mir aus löschen. Es nervt langsam; dieser Löschungswahn geht mir ein bisschen zu weit. Auch meine Seite für "αρbε̰ρ" scheint "problematisch" zu sein. Weil griechische Buchstaben gebraucht wurden. Mit wenigen Klicks hätte die Person auch realisiert, dass für Albanisch nicht nur Lat., sondern auch Elbasan & Gr. Alphabet gebraucht wurden. Gr.Alphabet wird immernoch gebraucht. Warum werden hier überhaupt aus kleinen Sachen Probleme und "Kontroversen" erstellt? Dieses ganze Wikipedia-Zeugs kommt mir vor wie die Bild "Zeitung". Von Neutralität kann man hier nicht sprechen. Illyrisch macht einfach kein Sinn ohne Albanisch. Albanisch macht auch keinen Sinn ohne Illyrisch; da Illyrisch als eine Brücke dient. Man kann hier nicht Albanisch einfach "überbrücken" und auf die Seite schieben. Aber genau das wird hier gemacht. Mit solch einer Einstellung könnt ihr I-E ganz sein lassen. Löschwahn bringt auch nichts. Ihr lässt nur Puzzleteilchen verschwinden. Exklusion von Illyrisch und Albanisch entstellt nur das Gesamtbild von I-E. Ganz ehrlich; es sieht auch schwer danach aus als würdest du bewusst nach alb. Seiten suchen, nur um irgendwetwas zu finden und zu löschen. I-E ist eine rekonstruierte Sprache. Somit auch nie 100% real, niemals "origineller" als eine Sprache die wirklich gesprochen wird.IMIPER (talk) 22:08, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Bitte auf englisch schreiben, denn hier ist das englische Wiktionary. / Please write in English, as this is the English Wiktionary. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:41, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Better answer the questions posed! We do not want Orel to explain this form but you are supposed to. If Illyrian is less real than Albanian, why does Albanian not make sense without Illyrian, hello? I can forgo that Gesamtbild. And no, I let no puzzle pieces disappear. I wish you’d provide them! Fay Freak (talk) 22:58, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. The word is attested in the form of a (Hesychian?) gloss.
 * However, I wonder if the entry shouldn't be moved to Reconstruction:Illyrian/rinos, since the spelling rh- is only due to the peculiar property of the Ancient Greek orthography and phonology that a pure Rho cannot occur word-initially. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 06:04, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * If the word is attested, shouldn't it be in mainspace? And does the context make it clear what language it is in? —Rua (mew) 11:21, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Good point; it's not a reconstruction, then. And I think it should be spelled in Greek, like for example Phrygian . --Florian Blaschke (talk)
 * Still, though, does the attestation make it clear that the word matches our modern understanding of what Illyrian is? Ancient sources don't always label languages very discerningly. Note that Wikipedia doesn't even consider Illyrian a single language, so if the source names it "Illyrian", which one is it? —Rua (mew) 15:21, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That doesn't really matter. It's just a label, and that's enough. Crucially, it has a SIL code. Just think of it as a macrolanguage. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:41, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * But do we know that these languages were actually related to each other? —Rua (mew) 15:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, since they were all Indo-European :-) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:15, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete -- 01:29, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The term is not attested in the dictionary by | Hesychius of Alexandria. It is solely attested in a comment to the Odyssey by | Eustathius of Thessalonica from the 12th century. He comments on a segment of the Odyssey as I have extracted from the recursions in two comments dating to 1740, which is reviewable with some consideration, and also 1810: "Φασὶ δὲ οἱ Παλαιοὶ - καὶ ὅτι ῥινὸν Ἰλλυριοὶ λέγουσι τὴν ἀχλὺν · ἰφάνη γοῦν τῷ Ὀδυσσεῖ ὡς ἀχλὺς ἡ γῆ." I could not encounter the full text of the comment by Eustathius. As he was living long after the extinction of the Illyrian languages in the 5th century, he probably associated and confounded unattested very Late Proto-Albanian "*rina" with the extinct Illyrian languages. It is necessarily notable that he was living in Thessaloniki that was still reached by the speakers of this stage of Proto-Albanian because some speakers of Old Albanian settled further below in Greece, developing Cham and Arvanitika dialects and they must have been distributed across a wider range in order to have the language contact given proof for by particular grammatical characteristics of Balkan languages and perhaps some loanwords in Romanian. HeliosX (talk) 21:09, 12 January 2020 (UTC)


 * RFD-deleted. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:29, 23 March 2020 (UTC)