Reconstruction talk:Proto-Albanian/tsunu

RFD discussion: December 2022–March 2023
Tagging here as the unintentional perpetrator; simply put, these have not been formally suggested as separate words within Proto-Albanian. The author in question who proposes an important compound between the two (*tsunuabōla), Vladimir Orel, dissects this word's etymology itself as perhaps traceable back to *ḱwṓ and *h₂ébōl, but again does not list the two constituent parts as independent words. Indeed, '*tsunu', if indeed in the oblique, would not represent the lemma form in any case. ArbDardh (talk) 01:12, 12 December 2022 (UTC)ArbDardh


 * If the word survived as part of another word, and was clearly replaced way later in history, clearly the two words existed as separate words earlier. '*abōla' also would represent the lemma form so if *tsunu gets deleted, at least keep *abōla. I still don't see why *tsunu would be deleted. If it doesn't represent lemma form maybe you can change it so it does? Balltari (talk) 02:35, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Does the fact that "twenty" exists in modern English also prove that both "twen" and "ty" are valid words in modern English? Thadh (talk) 11:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe not in the modern version of "twenty", but if you go further back to Proto Germanic the word was just a compound of "Twain" and "Teguz". A better example however is "dogberry". It's the same thing at tsunuabōla. A compound of "dog" and "berry". The words in "tsunuabōla" may not exist in modern Albanian but that's because it is Proto Albanian. Just like "Teguz" doesn't exist in modern English aside from the suffix "-Ty" which came from Proto Germanic "Tigaz". Balltari (talk) 02:08, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It seems you're confused by very basic principles of historical linguistics: "Proto-Albanian" does not refer to just any stage of the Albanian language preceding modern Albanian, it's the language just before the split of the modern Albanian dialects. For all we know that compound can be as old as PIE. Thadh (talk) 09:28, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Technically yes, but in Albanology, and on Wiktionary, "Proto-Albanian" (more precisely "Early Proto-Albanian") refers to the stage at the time of the earliest Latin loanwords, probably in the 2th or 1st century BC. The stage you mean, also known as "Late Proto-Albanian", could be as late as the 10th or 11th century AD and resembles attested Albanian far more closely. So in Albanology, "Proto-Albanian" is essentially an extended period lasting throughout the first millennium AD. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:45, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Still, my point stands, there's no reason to assume that the individual parts of the compound were still present in the language around the second century BC. Thadh (talk) 17:52, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If Orel's etymology is correct (which I don't really believe), that's exactly what we have to assume though: his argument is that these lexemes were replaced (or ousted) by the borrowings qen and mollë only later. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:05, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't want to continue this argument because I'm no expert in linguistics or anything but, I found another word with "-ukël", "Dardhukël". I don't know if there is a Proto-Indo-European word combining pear and apple (I don't think so as pears were native to the Balkans), but if not, would that not mean that "Ukël" or "Ubël" was indeed used as a separate word? Balltari (talk) 04:06, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete both, along with Reconstruction:Proto-Albanian/tsunuabōla. --Skiulinamo (talk) 03:55, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete both *tsunu and *abōla. Not sure about *tsunuabōla, depends on how accepted that reconstruction is. Thadh (talk) 11:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There are at least 3 different etymologies for, and seems the most straight forward. --Skiulinamo (talk) 06:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete unless evidence can be found that either was an independent word in Proto-Albanian. Nicodene (talk) 13:01, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete all three, like Victar. Catonif (talk) 14:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

RFD-deleted. Catonif (talk) 14:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)