Reconstruction talk:Proto-Celtic/akino

RFDO discussion: September 2016–February 2017
Tagged for speedy, but I'm moving it here. Reason stated is "too dubious". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:36, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Matasović doesn't mention this word, but the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru does reconstruct a Proto-Brythonic *ak-ino- (in our transcription, ), which would have to come from a Proto-Celtic *akīno-, and derives it from 🇨🇬. I'm leaning towards keep, or at least move to Reconstruction:Proto-Brythonic/ėgin since it doesn't seem to have cognates outside Brythonic. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Matasović quite LITERALLY mentions the word on one of the first damn pages. UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Which page? —CodeCat 22:17, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * First page of the CORRECTED Matasovic dictionary.

UtherPendrogn (talk) 22:24, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * akino- ‘shooot, sprout’ [Noun] W: MW egin [p] ‘shoots, sprouts, blades’   BRET: egin    PIE: *h2eḱ- ‘be sharp’ (IEW 19ff.)  COGN: Lat. acus ‘needle’, OCS osъtъ ‘thistle’  ETYM: The Brittonic words have the exact cognate in Lat. acinus ‘grape or other berry’, which may point to PIE *h2eḱ-ino-.  REF: GPC I: 1175.
 * I'm not sure what you mean by "the corrected Matasovic dictionary". Is there a second edition? The publisher's website mentions only the 2009 edition, which is the one I have. Same ISBN and everything. I can't find *akino- on the first page or in its expected alphabetical order. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:35, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The text you quoted shows "akino-", with a following hyphen, indicating that a case ending is to be attached. This is very different from the form "akino" that you gave, which is a fully formed word. Also, I don't see any mention of a gender in the quote, and Proto-Brythonic lost the neuter gender as far as I know, so why did you say it's neuter on the Proto-Celtic page? What is that based on? —CodeCat 22:38, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I found it: you're talking about the Addenda et Corrigenda released two years later. Yes, *akino- is there, but there's a vowel discrepancy. If Proto-Celtic had *akino- with a short i, then the Welsh would have to be *egyn and the Breton (I believe) *egen. The i of attested egin in both languages suggests a pre-form *akīno-. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:41, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Welsh lost the distinction between masculine and neuter, and I think Breton and Cornish did too, suggesting it was probably already lost in Proto-Brythonic, or at least is not recoverable. The word was probably more likely to be masculine, but it's difficult to prove. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:44, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure "akino-" just indicates that the case is an o-stem but that the author didn't want to put any specific declension. Not that there's a declension missing. What would it be? "akinoo"? "akinoa"? It's akinos, probably. I've redirected it to akīnos. UtherPendrogn (talk) 06:00, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, but why the long ī? As far as I can tell, this can only really be reconstructed to PB and not to PC proper. — JohnC5 14:14, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I have John Koch's comtact info, shall I ask him? UtherPendrogn (talk) 15:03, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * If that will provide a more satisfactory answer... — JohnC5 15:22, 19 September 2016 (UTC)


 * RFD kept. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 07:34, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

RFDO discussion: September 2016–February 2017
I disagree. In the corrected Matasovic Proto-Celtic dictionary:

W: MW egin [p] ‘shoots, sprouts, blades’ BRET: egin PIE: *h2eḱ- ‘be sharp’ (IEW 19ff.) COGN: Lat. acus ‘needle’, OCS osъtъ ‘thistle’ ETYM: The Brittonic words have the exact cognate in Lat. acinus ‘grape or other berry’, which may point to PIE *h2eḱ-ino-. REF: GPC I: 1175. UtherPendrogn (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * akino- ‘shooot, sprout’ [Noun]
 * I think you want WT:RFM as you don't seem to be proposing this redirect for deletion. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:21, 20 September 2016 (UTC)


 * It appears that there is no problem here. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 07:33, 20 February 2017 (UTC)