Reconstruction talk:Proto-Hellenic/wródon

RFD discussion: November–December 2023
Proto-Hellenic. Created by IP that did not do any other edit than one reverted nonsense. Proto-Hellenic precedes Proto-Iranian so could not have had this word, and the attestation dates are also at the end of Classical Greek, to which date Aeolic retained the digamma recorded for this word, until merging in. The only thing demonstrated here is that it was borrowed in Old Iranian times already. Fay Freak (talk) 09:59, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. The IP is in a range used to add all kinds of made-up stuff like bogus Proto-Italic with nothing but Latin for descendants but detailed inflection tables and IPA. There's an abuse filter created specifically to block them from the Reconstruction namespace and Japanese entries (another conlanging playground of theirs). As Inkbolt and Dim Blob they're globally locked.
 * As for the merits: this is a Wanderwort that made its way to a number of languages along with the plant and its products in classical times, so establishing when and how it entered a language is difficult at best. It would have to have been borrowed before the loss of *w before *r, but there's a long period between Proto-Hellenic and first attestations. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:47, 25 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Though I called out the vandal, my placement of the Greek attestation was a bit rhetorical, as for some reason the compound is found in Homer, even Aeolic  in  is attested. LSJ specifically mentions  being first attested in the  To Demeter l. 6. Strange enough that not earlier! When at the same time  is often! Notably however the word in Homer and Hesiod only occurs with  so we don’t know what it means beyond its being an epithet and it must later have been imposed a surface etymology, the kind of  =.
 * As for Sappho, this is the kind of vocabulary that is suggestive of interpolation, like in a very fake poem attributed to Imru al-Qays, and a large share of poems attributed to him. Or  meaning “mirror”, never existing outside of poet labs. I don’t usually do this stuff in Greek 1100 thousand years earlier, but Sappho authorship questions are well-known even more as problematic, and in either case we got the word around 500 BCE only.
 * I looked what the heck is going on with that 🇨🇬 form allegedly read wordowen and meaning “scented with rose” equalling, however not everyone dares to gloss it, like Documents in Mycenean Greek by and  1956, who at the same time for  the same occurrence dare gloss “flavoured with Cyperus”, and use a special sign ‡ for words that can be equated with “Homeric or classical forms”.
 * At least it is clear that Akkadian “wurdînu” ‘rose’ is a ghost word and nobody understand amurdinnum, murdinnu this way now. Fay Freak (talk) 04:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete: Related, I recently created this entry, which houses the noted borrowings above. -- 00:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

RFD-deleted. This, that and the other (talk) 08:53, 30 December 2023 (UTC)