Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/ətəna

Basis
, is this reconstruction really based only on Japanese and Okinawan? If so, couldn't it just be a Japanese borrowing into the latter, with the vowel quality changes motivated by analogy from other cognates (similar to how Yonaguni sometimes has borrowings from Japanese with d- instead of y-)?--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 19:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As best I can tell, this reconstruction is based purely on Japanese and Okinawan -- but I can't confirm the Okinawan utuna. I can find ufuchu, the expected reflex of cognate 🇨🇬.  I suspect the utuna term, if confirmed, may well be a borrowing, as you suggest -- but then my Ryūkyūan resources are almost exclusively online and very limited, even more so since the University of the Ryūkyūs online Shuri-Naha dictionary was taken down.
 * That said, our reconstruction itself may be quite flawed: I cannot confirm an form of, and I cannot currently find any Old Japanese instance that spells the word out phonetically in , so I cannot confirm if the Old Japanese phonetics are accurate for the vowel values. However, old texts younger than OJP appear to show the reading instead as  (katakana form ), such as seen here in the KDJ entry at Kotobank.  Since  is often reconstructed as , and  as  (see also ), the older kana spellings with  would seem to rule out any  →  realization.
 * There's a possibility that the younger kana spellings with  represent some kind of reanalysis, and the OJP term did indeed have  → .  But as it stands, I can find no confirmation of this.
 * Monolingual Japanese sources describe the etymology of as murky.  This spelling and reading was also used for a term meaning "head, chief, boss", and Japanese references mention the possibility that there's some kind of connection with 🇨🇬.
 * Apologies for the somewhat disjointed notes; I hope this helps even so. Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:06, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , thank you for the detailed explanation. Do you think the reconstruction should be deleted?--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 00:50, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Eh, I'm ambivalent. The word with rough phonemic shape otona is attested in Old Japanese at least as far back as 720 if the kun'yomi for the kanji-spelled term in the  is to be trusted, and at least the late 900s if we discount the Nihon Shoki text.  So it seems reasonable enough to me to suspect that there was probably something preceding this term in Proto-Japonic.
 * Thinking on it more, I'm reluctant to remove it just yet, since I can't currently evaluate the existence or lack thereof for any Ryūkyūan cognates. That said, I think this might warrant a thread at the WT:Tea room, if you'd want to open up the discussion.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:40, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr https://www.jlect.com/search.php?r=%E3%81%8A%E3%81%A8%E3%81%AA&l=all&group=words
 * "ウツナ utuna (?utuna) ⓪ 名
 * おとな. 文語的な語. 普通は?uhuQcuという. ?icinukezi nikezi 'judidu ?asibjutaru, ?iCinu mani satuja～nataga,[一のかいぢ二かいぢ読でど遊びゆたる何時の間に里や大人なたが]一回,二回と数えて石投げをして遊んでいたのだが,いつの間にあなたはおとなになったのか."
 * Chuterix (talk) 15:40, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Chuterix -- Thank you! Years ago, JLect was not on my radar.  The existence of ?utunasjaN is helpful too.  These might both be borrowings from Japanese, so it would be great if we could find reflexes in more than one Ryukyuan lect. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Attestation
@Chuterix, per the KDJ entry at Kotobank, we have attestation in kana renderings since the late 900s, and in logographic kanji (with kundoku of uncertain age) since 720. That's roughly 270 years between the 720 logographic and late-900s kana, so there's some room for sound change. That said, it is likely that this otona is indeed from OJP, albeit with uncertain 甲・乙 values for the /o/.

Whether this is a coinage within Japanese, or can be traced back further to Proto-Japonic, I am less certain. The apparent lack of cognates in Ryukyuan suggests a Japanese coinage, with later borrowing into Okinawan.

Incidentally, JLect doesn't have many of the Ryukyuan terms you've added to descendants lists, and the Shuri-Naha dictionary is still offline. What source are you using for your Ryukyuan cognates? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Indeed attested in the Shoki, but with logographic spelling (for these only attestations I capitalized them but that failed). If indeed it was wotona, the historical kana spelling would've been wotona. The same issue is with < Proto-Japonic  has *womo in one of Shoki kun-annotated attestations, but another has omo. The only attestation in Old Japanese poetry is in Manyoshu, where it's spelled logographically, but the kun appears to be omo, and also mo A/B distinction was lost in Manyoshu. See also, formerly tozuku (toduku), attested Shoki with the reading TOTUKU (unvoiced mispelling of TODUKU) and recently reconstructed as Proto-Japonic , with fairly attested Ryukyuan cognates and due to the raising of the second vowel */o/ to */u/; seems to have reverted by the Kamukara period. Also because Arisaka's law prohibits o2 existing with o1, u, or a. Therefore I am confident about my reconstruction, and that the OJ term was hypothetically *to1duku. In contrast, compare Japanese  and Okinawan , from PJ . About otona, I believe it's a coinage in Japan of unknown origin, while Ryukyuan uses Proto-Ryukyuan , with moderate Ryukyuan cognates. Okinawan might've borrowed from Japanese. I cannot find expected *utuna < *otona in other Ryukyuan dictionaries AFAIK.
 * For Okinawan: I told you that JLect has Okinawa-go Jiten (Okinawan Dictionary) added to it, so if you search up Japanese cognate or meaning of Okinawan term, then you get results. I search おとな on JLect and on Okinawa-go jiten data shū I get uhuQcu (ufutchu うふっちゅ) or utuna (utuna うとぅな). Sadly I can't access Kunigami (Nakijin), (Northern) Amami (Yamatohama), or Miyako data, so I have to use other sources (for Nakijin and Yamatohama and sometimes Yoron I use Google snippet view search to get these terms but I do not put them as an individual entry, only as Proto-Ryukyuan descendants; e.g. PR ), including but not limited to Martin (1987) for Nakijin verbs and adjectives, etc. For PR entries with all Ryukyuan descendants, see Thorpe (1983). If the book doesn't have that entry, we've used individual sources (e.g. PJ /PR ; sources in editor comments). That's all I have to say. ありがとうございました. Chuterix (talk) 00:01, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Deletion
Clearly a borrowing as no Ryukyuan cognates exist. The Okinawan term is presumably a borrowing from (forgot to say Old) Japanese, with innovation. Chuterix (talk) 16:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Wait, I forgot this isn't phonographically attested in OJ. Chuterix (talk) 16:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Ya, this doesn't seem to be phonologically attested until the of the late 900s, if the NKD entry is accurate.  May well be a Japanese innovation during the Old Japanese / Early Middle Japanese phase. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:47, 25 June 2023 (UTC)