Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/-nka

Is 🇨🇬 a comparandum worth mentioning here? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 02:46, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was only used starting from the early modern ages. It must be a borrowing from early modern Japanese. Kwékwlos (talk) 16:00, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , related thread at User_talk:Wyang/Archive7. Wyang lists a few relevant references, with links.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:12, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Pellard
, I think it's appropriate to mention Pellard, but I don't think it's appropriate to rework the entry on the basis of one reference work.

By contrast to Pellard's contention, Japanese sources point out that genitive appears in the oldest OJP texts as a marker on much more than just pronouns. See also sense [1].[一].①.(イ) at the KDJ entry for が ga (in Japanese).

And regarding those pronouns that take as a genitive, these were not always genitive forms for the pronouns. We see (for instance) that bare-form was used with, , and , with the kind of set-phrase genitive usage of wa ga only becoming prevalent later. See also this KDJ entry for 我 wa (in Japanese).

The description of Proto-Japonic as probably lacking a subject particle agrees with other things I've read. That said, we also see clear usage of as a nominative marker in the earliest extant Japanese texts, further suggesting that use was not restricted to genitive contexts. See also sense [1].[三].①.(イ) at the KDJ entry for が ga (in Japanese).

The KDJ entry for here includes a sizable section of notes. Of particular relevance to discussion of the genitive use:

 [語誌]((一)に関して) (1)格助詞としての用法(一)は、ほとんどすべて「の」助詞の用法と相重なるが、両助詞の機能的な差異から、自然とその使用環境は微妙な差異を示す. すなわち(一)の連体格用法で、第一に、人を表わす体言を受ける場合、待遇表現上の区別が認められる. 「が」助詞が用いられた場合には、「万葉‐三八四三」の「いづくそ真朱(まそほ)掘る岳こもたたみ平群(へぐり)の朝臣(あそ)我(ガ)鼻の上をほれ」、「万葉‐八九二」の「しもと取る 里長(さとをさ)我(ガ)声は 寝屋戸まで 来立ち呼ばひぬ」、「平家‐三」の「少将の形見にはよるの衾、康頼入道が形見には一部の法花経をぞとどめける」の例のように、その人物に対する親愛、軽侮、憎悪、卑下等の感情を伴い、「の」助詞が用いられた場合には敬意あるいは心理的距離が感じられる. 第二に、受ける語の種類が「の」助詞より狭く、従ってその関係構成も狭い. ただし「が」助詞には、(一)(二)(三)を通じて「の」助詞の受け得ない活用語の連体形を受ける用法がある. ここに、「が」助詞が接続助詞にまで発展する可能性を秘めている. [Notes] (Regarding sense (一) [genitive]): (1) Usage as a case particle (一) overlaps with the usage of particle in almost all cases, but functional differences between the particles naturally seem to suggest a subtle difference in use environment. In other words, for the attributive case usage in (一), 1) when preceded by a nominative indicating a person, we can infer a distinction in expressions of social treatment. Where the  particle is used, as in ' (MYS) poen 3843 [text here], "いづくそ真朱(まそほ)掘る岳こもたたみ平群(へぐり)の朝臣(あそ)我(ガ)鼻の上をほれ"; or MYS poem 892 [text here, "しもと取る 里長(さとをさ)我(ガ)声は 寝屋戸まで 来立ち呼ばひぬ"; or ' book three [text here], "少将の形見にはよるの衾、康頼入道が形見には一部の法花経をぞとどめける"; we see an accompanying sense of affection, contempt, loathing, or disparagement towards that person.  Where the  particle is used, there is a sense of respect or psychological distance.  And 2), a narrower range of word types can take  than, and as such, there is also a narrower range of relational formations. However, the particle has usage patterns that can take the attributive forms of inflecting words, which the particle  cannot take, in all three sense groupings (一)(二)(三). This may be the potential that gave rise to development of as a conjunctive particle.

I'm out of time and brainpower, so I'll leave it at that. HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:04, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * In the absence of any further discussion here, and in the absence of any evidence I'm aware of for any *ka emphatic marker, I'm rejiggering the etymology to be less definite about this particular theory. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:31, 30 March 2021 (UTC)