Reconstruction talk:Proto-Japonic/mita

Etym
How is this possibly related to ? Who has suggested a shift from ni to mi? What would the final -ta element be?

This strikes me as far too speculative to state as given fact. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I heard one said the last -ta is . However, I forgot which source. Chuterix (talk) 22:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * OJP nita is an adjective meaning "soft and full of moisture", not a noun meaning "earth, soil, dirt", regardless of color.
 * Hachijō mija means "ground", as in the word list in this PDF, not "earth, soil, dirt", and not "soft and full of moisture".
 * These look like multiple distinct roots -- ni, nita, mija, and Proto-Ryukyuan mita -- not cognates. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:28, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr: See English soil and its cognates where it means 'mud' in addition to 'ground'. See also here. Chuterix (talk) 16:53, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmm, thank you for the Vovin paper, I'll have to go through that later.
 * Notably, the nita I'm aware of from Sendai dialect appears to be in variation with alternative forms nota and nuta, with nuta described as the original form, and where the nu is presumably or, and the ta is the 田 you mentioned above.  In the Tōhoku, there's a collapse of u and i vowels, as described some over at ズーズー弁, particularly (emphasis mine):
 * また、これと重なるようにこれらの地域ではイ段とウ段が中舌母音になり、母音単独拍のイとエが統合する（詳しくは日本語の方言#裏日本的音韻を参照）. このような音韻体系は「裏日本式音韻」と呼ばれ、「表日本式音韻」と対置される. 東北方言・東関東方言と雲伯方言は裏日本式音韻体系を持ち、北陸方言は裏日本式と表日本式の中間とされる.
 * From the linked 裏日本方言 article, particularly the #特徴 section:
 * 
 * イ段とウ段の母音が近い発音になり、中舌母音 [ï]・[ɯ̈] となる.
 * 特に、シとス、チとツ、ジ（ヂ）とズ（ヅ）の区別がなくなる（ズーズー弁）.
 * エ段の音は、共通語のエよりもイ段に近い発音となり、母音単独拍ではイ→エに統合する.
 * 共通語のウ段音の語例がかなりの程度でオ段音になる.
 * Point 1 above explains the nuta → nita shift, and Point 3 above helps elucidate the nota form's origins.
 * Vovin's paper points out nita in Iwate, which is part of this zūzū-ben area, where nuta would shift to nita. Weblio's DJS nuta entry matches other things I've read in the past, deriving nuta from 沼 nu + 田 ta.  I don't think the Iwate nita ("deep muddy paddy", noun) has any connection to the OJP nita ("wet, sodden", adjective). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Vovin seems to claim that the shift from おほみ to おほむ・おほん didn't happen until the end of the Heian in the late 1100s, and that therefore the 於保无太加良 (おほむたから) reading in the 倭名類聚抄 of the 930s must mean that OJP opomitakara was instead opomutakara. He then uses this as the basis for arguing that the traditional parsing, as 大 opo + 御 mi + 宝 takara, cannot be correct, and he instead parses this as 大 opo + *muta ("soil, earth"?) + 柄 kara.  He then tries to make this putative *muta the root of OJP nita ("wet, sodden", adjective) and the various Ryukyuan terms (generally meaning "soil, earth, dirt", noun).
 * However, the KDJ entry here at Kotobank cites the おほむ・おほん form of 大御 to the 古今和歌集 of the early 900s, earlier than the 倭名類聚抄 of the 930s that Vovin cites as the first phonetic instance of 於保无太加良 (おほむたから).
 * The semantics also don't fit in trying to tie OJP nita to the Ryukyan words. The KDJ entry for にた quotes the 出雲国風土記, which 1) distinguishes between 沼田 nuta and 爾多 nita, and 2) uses nita in the context of 「爾多(ニタ)の水もちて、御乾飯(みかれいひ)爾多(ニタ)に食(を)しまさむと詔りたまひて」 — which certainly doesn't work semantically if nita is a noun meaning "soil, earth, dirt".
 * I think Vovin is stretching here, and his argument just doesn't hold together very well.
 * As a side note, I know that Vovin wrote a lot, and refined and changed his theories as time went and he learned more. I wonder when this piece about *muta was written? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr: There may be a possibility 沼田 alternating with 爾多/nita may just be a folk etymology. I also have a tentative connection to, possibly derived from , or even . A semantic change earth, soil > soil > mud > muddy > wet > sticky; slimy is not entirely impossible. Semantic changes can be drastic, e.g. , from the French word , amongst other wasei eigo, or , a Japonic word cognate with , or , cognate with . Chuterix (talk) 14:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Mainstream 🇨🇬 is more like "lower leg; calf", from the knee to the ankle, more closely resembling the Proto-Ryukyuan. These are at least semantically close.  Likewise, silvergrass flowers apparently look similar to those of sugarcane, and both are grass relatives with similar leaves.  And the shift in meaning for  from  to  makes sense historically, as skiving off work was used as a deliberate means to sabotage a company's performance during labor disputes: see also サボる.
 * "Soil" (noun) and "wet" (adjective) are much harder to correlate semantically: soil is not necessarily wet, and wetness has no intrinsic connection to soil. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, point 1 is only restricted to fricatives. All variants of in Tohoku simply have /nɯ̈ma/, except Aomori, which has /noma/. (Source: Hirayama et al. 1992-1994, 1831) Chuterix (talk) 15:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I thought there were other instances of u ↔ i collapse in Tōhoku dialects.  Ah, well. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC)