Rhymes talk:Polish/a-


 * Wait, by a superscript you mean a palatalisation maek, e.g. /pʲ/? -pia, -fia, etc. are, phonemically, /pja/ and /fja/, and the palatalisation of the preceding consonant, resulting in [fʲja], is a normal secondary process that also occurs in English but nobody marks it as we don't usually use such a detailed notation. Many linguists even doubt the existence of contrastive /kʲ gʲ xʲ/ and analyse them as underlying /kj gj xj/ with /-j-/ reduced to palatalisation before front vowels. Shumkichi (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I know that Polish palatalization is weaker, it's just they're also marked on our IPA charts if you go to a page with that sound. I was thinking it would give some consistency. If you think they should be /pja/ and not /pʲa/ then I'm okay with that, too. Other than that, is this how you think we should continue with the rhymes? Vininn126 (talk) 13:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I mean, they aren't /pʲa/ but [pʲja], if anything. I just checked it and pl wiktionary marks them correctly as [pʲja] but en wiktionary as /pʲa/. I don't know who created the template. Anyway, it is also inconsistent with what you can find even on en wikipedia which only says that /kʲ gʲ xʲ/ are phonemes. Shumkichi (talk) 13:29, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * So which transcription would you prefer? And I'll take the lack of an answer as a "yes" and I'll add the other rhymes soonish :p Vininn126 (talk) 13:33, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd go with /pja/, /fja/, /mja/, etc. As for /kʲ gʲ xʲ/, I don't know if they are contrastive as phonemes, and even if they are, are they contrastive as RHYMES alone? Shumkichi (talk) 13:36, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay. And well see that's what I was bringing up. Are we going with perfect rhymes? Are we gonna go the Hungarian route and simplify them? Vininn126 (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll add that I took a peek at other rhyme dictionaries and this is how most list them. Yeah, it's an overwhelming amount. Vininn126 (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Idk, don't make me decide alone or someone with a better expertise will be pissed off :( I don't know much about the structure of rhymes in Polish. Shumkichi (talk) 13:49, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The blind leading the blind. I think we should go this way due to the presedences of rhyme dictionaries before us. Plus having this foundation means adding new ones will be easier - the bulk is done. And hopefully we can get them automatically added. Perhaps has thoughts. Vininn126 (talk) 13:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * If we decide to merge some rhymes - namely clusters and palatalized variants, we should at least agree upon a "standard". I think non-geminates would get the heading, and non-palatals would. Vininn126 (talk) 13:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * : Stolarski (2010) notes that "labial palatalized consonants were treated as independent phonemes and the glide /j/ was not marked in phonemic transcription. Such an interpretation stemmed from the fact that /i/ and /0/ were treated as one functional unit in Polish. [...] Consequently, labial palatalized consonants had to be treated as phonemes, since they were in parallel distribution with their non-palatal counterparts. The very existence of /j/ in such words was, therefore, inessential. Nowadays, however, in many Polish dialects, including standard Polish, the articulatory distinction between /i/ and /ɨ/ is clear and the distribution of the discussed consonants is predictable. They are always palatalized  when followed by /i/ and always non-palatal when followed by /ɨ/." Thus, I'd add the glide /j/ to the transcription. As for the perfect rhymes, I have to be honest that I don't know what you're talking about. Could you be more specific? Tashi (talk) 15:54, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input, I've updated that with your suggestions. Essentially, it would be separating /akɛ/ and /akjɛ/ into separate categories, rather than being in the same group. So they'll have their own entries in the dictionary, rather than, say /akjɛ/ words being listed under /akɛ/ words. I personally think we should go for this, as other dictionaries have, too (note the Czech rhyming dictionary and the Finnish one here on Wiktionary). Also pinging to update them. Vininn126 (talk) 11:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Notifying you here since I forgot to do so in the edit description. Shumkichi (talk) 12:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)