Talk:υπογράφω

υπογράφω (and other compound greek verbs: problem with the imperatives)

 * Discussion moved from User talk:Saltmarsh — Salt  marsh . 05:55, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * My note in 2017.06.27. on conjugation of υπογράφω.
 * 1) Present Imperative sing 2s (υπέγραφε) is wrong: should be: υπόγραφε (υπό + γράφε. There is no epsilon: There is no syllabic αύξηση.)
 * 2) Past (Aorist) Imperative sing 2s (υπέγραψε) is wrong: should be: υπόγραψε (υπό+γράψε)
 * Past (Aorist) Imperative pl 2s (υπογράψετε) is OK. We also use: υπογράψτε.
 * Check verb γράφω the imperatives. Similarly formed are the imperatives of all compound modern greek verbs.


 * Greek verbs are complicated and it is not possible to "automate" all alternative forms in conjugation tables - but I have added a footnote.
 * If I understand the point raised the "έ" forms are archaic and "ό" are modern and "more correct" (in English we have the same problem - is the past of "learn" "learnt" or "learned"). Whichever term grammarians may prefer the "έ" forms are about 30 times more common on Google. (, may like to comment) —  Salt  marsh . 06:16, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Don't use Google for statistics. Especially since υπέγραφε/υπέγραψε could also be the 3rd-person singular imperfect and past forms, so how do you know the imperative was intended? The imperative (as opposed to the imperfect and past) never had έ forms, so they cannot be explained as being archaic. --WikiTiki89 20:59, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Response by sarri.greek, 2017.06.29, Athens, 00:30 local time, in a mini-heatwave: Thank you Saltmarsh for your prompt response. Conjugation tables of compound verbs cannot be automatic, unless one creates a different template for composite verbs, following the rules of synthesis/composition -too complicated-. Here are some clarifying notes:
 * 1) No. At the imperative, the 'e' is NOT archaic, it is simply non-existant. BOTH ancient greek AND modern greek verbs γράφω and υπογράφω (or any Verb and Prep+Verb), have identical imperatives: Present: anc: ὑπόγραφε mod: υπόγραφε and Aorist: anc: ὑπόγραψον mod: υπόγραψε. Why would there be an 'e' out of the blue?  There are RULES for composing words.  The rule here, has to do with the movement of the accent at the last syllable of the 1st compononet: υπόγραφε, not υπογράφε.
 * 2) The types 'υπέγραφε' and 'υπέγραψε' are Imperfect indicativus and Aorist indicativus 3rd person (as WikiTiki very well points out). Ancient greek: ὑπέγραφε / ὑπέγραψε. Modern greek double types: υπόγραφε, υπέγραφε / υπόγραψε, υπέγραψε. Here, yes, the type with the 'e' is more 'λόγιο/scholarly' But not at the imperative.
 * 3) It is a mistake most greeks make (with all composite-verb imperatives), especially people that are not well read (even journalists fail). The frequency is so high, almost universal, that special note is being made at schools. People are accustomed BY EAR to the Past indicativus rather than the impertivus. Correcting this mistake is NOT a stuffy academic 'grammarian's'' task, as XorisTzatziki puts it. It is simply a mistake.
 * Good source: article by Emmanuel Kriaras, 2000: < https://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php?topic=3832.0 >  ..Ακόμη και όταν ο αρχαϊσμός είναι απόλυτα δικαιολογημένος όπως στους αορίστους του τύπου κατέγραψα (όπου η εσωτερική συλλαβική αύξηση είναι βέβαια αρχαϊσμός), είναι ενδεχόμενο ο μη κατατοπισμένος χρήστης να οδηγηθεί σε σφάλμα σχηματίζοντας εσφαλμένη προστακτική υπέγραψε αντί υπόγραψε. Το σφάλμα ακούγεται συχνά...
 * 4) Consulting the internet for the frequency of an utterance, is NOT proof of its correctness. On the contrary, it reveals the problem.
 * 5) We all look upon wiktionary and your work with trust. Students in greek schools visit wiktionary to check their mistakes (Because the 'greek grammarians' have never bothered to offer them a FULL-inflection-conjugation book such as 'Bescherelle'). There are only a few here: http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/tools/lexica/rimatiko/r1.html etc)
 * 6) I would love to sit down and check all composite verbs, and other dubious issues for ancient and modern greek, to help any wiktionarian (I am a pianist, but in my youth i also got a philosophy degree from the athens University). But i found it IMPOSSIBLE to edit lemmata myself, or to add things in english or greek wiktionary. Am I stupid? or is it really complicated?
 * I am sorry for the length of this note. If anyone needs help with greek lemmata I will gladly give it. And if anyone can help me, teaching me how to edit, I will gladly take it. Here is my email: sarrikaterina@yahoo.com.
 * Thanks! sarri.greek.  (You can sign off using 4 tildes, ie ~ this generates a timed signature)


 * I am perfectly aware of the perils of using a Google search as proof of anything! But ask: is the use of "υπέγραφε" as an imperative is attested? —  Salt  marsh . 05:12, 29 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Meanwhile - I'm away for the weekend and will address the problem next week. — Salt  marsh . 05:29, 30 June 2017 (UTC)