Talk:ابری

This entry contains several errors and inconsistencies which I attempted to correct but which were reverted by user User:CodeCat, so I will take a moment to explain my changes here. First of all, I am not sure which transliteration standard should be adopted, but there is a mix of several, which makes matters VERY confusing!

A macron is used to denote long vowels in several ENGLISH systems (ALA-LC, IJMES) but other non-English systems, such as France and in Turkey employ the circumflex. I would advocate using an English-language standard for an English-language article.

Second, the use of the term ابری ebrî, abrî, abrī (depending on the dialect) is very well documented in not just Ottoman Turkish, but also one Chaghatay Turkish source. It is found in all Turkish texts dating before the 19th century. For example, the earliest Turkish text is entitled Tertîb-i Risâle-i Ebrî (ترطیبِ رسالۀ ابری), dated after 1615. See this WP entry. Note that the diacritics used here are for Ottoman Turkish in Modern Turkish, since it is a Turkish text. In contrast, if it were formally transliterated by a library cataloguer based on Perso-Arabic values (as there is not Turkish present in the title), it would be Tarṭīb-i Risāla-yi Abrī.

Third, a variant term, ebrû/ebru appeared in the late 19th century. It is a late Ottoman word, first documented in the Redhouse Lexicon, 1890 edition. This is why I designated both "early" and "late" Ottoman forms, for they do in fact exist!

Fourthly, unless the OED, Webster's or another English dictionary has accepted it, ebru is most definitely not an English word; it is modern Turkish term. The Persian term should be translated into English for an English-language article, not modern Turkish.

I propose the five following correction:

1) ابر و باد ‎(abr-o-bâd)

This is a non-standard transliteration, using the "o" with hyphens for the letter و. This should be changed to abr ū bād as the letter و here is a long vowel. This is also given further below, albeit hyphenated and without a diacritic on the ū.

2) → Ottoman Turkish: ابری ‎(ebru)

This is clearly incorrect as ابری is transliterated abrī, not ebru, which is spelled ابرو.

3) کاغذ ابری‎ ― kâğaz-e abri ― marbled paper

This transliteration uses the breve, probably mistakenly copying the modern Turkish yumuşak ğ, a diactric never used for Persian, ever. Secondly, it employs the circumflex on the first word, but lacks it on the second. Thirdly, the use of -e for the Persian izafat is a non-standard transliteration. Fourthly, it lacks the designator for ذ which depending on the transliteration system, should be ẕ.

Hence, the correct transliteration is kāgaẕ-i abrī

4) نقش ابری‎ ― baqš-e abri ― ebru pattern

The first letter is clearly a ن and not a ب. Second, the caron or háček used here is used by French and other continental transliteration, not English standards. Third, it lacks the the long vowel diacritic on the final i. Fourthly, the translation of this is NOT "ebru" pattern. Again, someone seems to think that the Persian words must be interpreted by this Modern Turkish variant. The correct translation is literally "clouded pattern" but since "abrī" clearly means "marbled paper", it it better translated as "marbled pattern" or "marbled design".

The correct form here should be naqsh-i abrī

5) مایع ابری‎ ― mâye'-e abri ― the liquid substance used in ebru technique

The use of the circumflex is again, a French/Continental/Modern Turkish diacritical mark, inappropriate for transliterating Persian into English. Secondly, the use of the vowel "e" is entirely non-standard, both for the "-e" izafat and the first word.

The correct form for this is

Māyi‘-i abrī / Māyiʿ-i abrī