Talk:ابن

It is obviously wrong to say that ابن is derived from تبني. In language, complex forms derive from simple forms, and the form ibn is elemental, far predating the form tabanna (to adopt). I strongly suggest that this etymology be removed from Wiktionary.


 * The derivation is lexicologically correct from a synchronic (not diachronic, as you refer) point of view. Backinstadiums (talk) 10:48, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

بُنَيّ
Could sb. please check whether بُنَيّ can actually be decomposed in 'little son' + 'my'? Also, this 'little' is diminutive or affectionate? Thanks in advance. Backinstadiums (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Not to my knowledge. "My son" (not little, just son) is ابني (ibnī) but the initial alif can be dropped in pronunciation after words ending in a vowel, including prepositions or conjunctions, e.g. وابني (wa-bnī) "and my son". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:26, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right, or  can mean "my son". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:36, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

where is the suffix possessive pronoun in بُنَيّ or بُنَيَّ ? --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:52, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * . is an anomalous noun, which may have some strange forms with vowels. A normal possessive is  or  "my son". The form  (this pronunciation is correct according to Hans Wehr dictionary) is a possessive form of  /  where the initial vowel is dropped (it happens in a few cases, e.g.  - an alternative form of ) and a vowel is added. Not sure if the vowel here is "-a" or "-ay". When there is a final vowel, the possessive changes from the simple ـِي (-ī) to ـَيَّ (-(ay)ya).
 * From An Introduction to Koranic & Classical Arabic by Wheeler M. Thackston:
 * ـِي supersedes all short inflection vowels, so, ـِي is used for all cases.
 * When the 1st sing. enclitic is preceded by a long vowel or diphtong, it is -ya - my two books (nominative),  my two books (oblique case). Judging from this  is the stem "bun" + diphthong "ay" + suffix "-ya". The inserted vowels "u" in "bun" an "ay" before the possessive ending must be anomalous. I can't find anything else, unfortunately. Also: . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:17, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The same source shows an example of ـِيَ "-iya" ending before an elidable alif: . --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:22, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

فُعَيْلٌ is the pattern for diminutives, قُبَيْلَ ٱلظُّهْرِ, but if 2Consonants + long vowel, then → ـَـيِّـ:  booklet كُتيِّب. I'd like to add its morphemes to the entry. --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Some of the vowels in your examples are stuffed up but anyway, the diminutive pattern (in the pausal form) explains it all, thanks. It's  + possessive form, which should be used after diphthongs (see above). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:38, 8 March 2017 (UTC)


 * We had this discussion in the Tea Room a few months ago. does not end in a diphthong, because the yaa is geminated; so the expected form with the suffix "my" in standard Arabic would be . I suspect that  is a vocative form, without the suffix "my", but the sense of "my" is implied because you wouldn't normally call someone else's son a "son" when speaking to them. So literally it just means "little son", but in English we would normally add "my" in such vocative expressions. --WikiTiki89 16:03, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

'or بَنَات ‎(banāt),'
Hi, this is a feminine plural, so it must appear to the right of feminine forms. --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Read the usage note please. --WikiTiki89 15:42, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
 * By the way, is there any way to see systematically all the 'usage notes' appearing in the entries of arabic terms? There isn't any category, so I do not know how to find them. --Backinstadiums (talk) 16:28, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't think of a way, besides doing a regex search. Though perhaps or another clever programmer could use a bot to make a list? — Eru·tuon 10:32, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * User:DTLHS/Arabic usage notes DTLHS (talk) 15:52, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi again, according to the entry for اِبْنَة, the form بَنَات ‎is one of its plurals. Does the usage note applies here as well? --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:12, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Root?
Should the root be given as "ا ب ن"?

70.172.194.25 18:01, 16 February 2022 (UTC)


 * ʾAlif is not counted by Arabic lexicographers as a radical usually, but as an of a kind that shifts between long vowels (ā,ī, ū) and diphthongs ending in a glide (aw, aj). With, for instance, one would not say that the "root" is "ا س م" but would have to look for other derivates that share the word's meanings and its last to consonants, like  and . These two verbs, however, do not share the same consonantal root: the form II of  would be , and the form I of  would, through back-formation, be likely . It is thus mainly from this that the disputes over the "root" of , whether it is "و س م" or "س م و", arose among medieval Arabic lexicographers. As for , you would likewise have to scour for other derivatives with like meanings, like  and . Hence, the root would be hypothesized to be "ب ن و" Roger.M.Williams (talk) 21:53, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Would that apply to too? Currently that is not listed as having a root, although the Moroccan and South Levantine Arabic sections list the root as "ب ن ت". I guess that makes sense, given the t, but the t is just an ending that makes it feminine, so should it be the same root as ibn? 70.172.194.25 21:56, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * One could create a denominal root from, ب ن ت, and have verbs with such a form, especially in the dialects. The word itself, though, is just an irregular feminine that occurs mainly, but not solely, in names and lineages (as in X, daughter of Y, son of Z). Its regularly derived counterpart is Roger.M.Williams (talk) 22:05, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * That all makes sense, thanks. 70.172.194.25 22:17, 16 February 2022 (UTC)