Talk:आपवणे

Greetings. Does this word exist in standard Maharashtrian Marathi? I added it long back because it's used in (spoken) Goan Marathi but I haven't seen this word being used anywhere outside Goa. I could be wrong though. Goan Marathi is at times influenced by Konkani in terms of grammar and vocabulary. This may be an example where Konkani speakers imported 🇨🇬 into Marathi. If that really is the case then I suggest this entry be deleted. -- Bhagadatta (talk) 11:18, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello. I don't think this word exists in standard Marathi. The Date dictionary has an entry for it, which says आपयणें पहा. The आपयणें entry is marked as Goan with गो. The Date dictionary includes Goan words since it may have considered Konkani to be a dialect of Marathi rather than a separate language. Perhaps the य ~ व fluctuation is indicative of ʻKonkani speakers importing the word into Marathiʼ. The Old Marathi DSAL dictionary has entries for आवाहणे, अव्हानणे, आफाविणे so one of those of those forms such as आवाहणे may have survived in early modern Marathi under the influence of the tatsama . Unless you want to look for quotations or label it as dialectal, I would agree with your suggestion to delete it. Kutchkutch (talk) 12:58, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for making it clear! Wow, so I was right about this being Goan. The medial -य- may be from the Konkani forms आपय्ता (3rd pers. present indicative), आपय (imperative) etc (so you were right, it is Konkani influenced). Now the -णे tells us that it's still Marathi. Quotations will be hard to find because even a Goan writing in Marathi would use Standard Marathi. I'm confused between tagging the page for deletion and moving the page to  and marking it as mr and writing in the Etymology "from mr or mr". What do you think? -- Bhagadatta (talk) 17:24, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The following are examples of the word in books:
 * From DSAL Date
 * 'आपविल्या द्विजा । अष्ट देवतांची करिती पूजा ।।' -वसा ३२
 * From Old Konkani Language and Literature: The Portuguese Role
 * धरिंचें प्रसवण कैसो सुकयताशि? समेस्तांक ताणी फुडारूंचे आधिं, आपवणें करिताशि, आणी मजो उलो नआयको जावनु, कान डांपिताशि !
 * विश्वरचनेक आपुल्या देवाक वर्नूंक आत्मों आपवणें करिता.
 * From Marāthī Sãśodhana-Patrikā, Volume 23
 * आज ग्रांथिक माराठींत हें क्रियापद वापरांत नाहीं। पण कोंकणींत 'आपवणें' हें 'बोलावणें', हांक मारणें' या अर्थानें अद्याप रूढ आहे.
 * The first example looks rather old. The second example appears to be Konkani and uses णें in Konkani. The third example is very enlightening:
 * ʻThis verb is not used in literary Marathi today. But in Konkani, आपवणे still has meaning बोलावणे or हाक मारणे.
 * The second example leads to question: What does the ending णें mean when used in Konkani? I can find it in instances such as:
 * पावलूक धर्मदूत जावंक जेजुचें आपवणें आयल्या उपरांत, विदेशियां सरीं धरंपर्गटणेचो वावर अदीक नेटान चल्ता.
 * ऐजवचो गायन शेताोंतलो अनभोग आनीं सोंगीताची गूंडाय समजोन तिका जायत्या गायन स्पर्ध्यांनी वोरयणार जावन आपवणें आयिल्लें आसा.
 * ताच्या हरेका कवितेपरीं, ह्या कवितेंत सयत आसचें काव्याळ आमाल सेवंक तुकाय आपवणें दितां.
 * If it's really ʻused in (spoken) Goan Marathiʼ, then I would suggest:
 * Keeping the page at आपवणे since this is the form of the Date example (unless य rather than व is more common when spoken)
 * For the etymology:
 * From and influenced by 🇨🇬. Related to the obsolete  from 🇨🇬.
 * For the definition line:
 * Add to the entry
 * Create with
 * Perhaps this is somehow related to the dialectal . Kutchkutch (talk) 08:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You're right, the Marathi-Konkani dialect continuum was what I thought of too. In Konkani, a verb stem sometimes takes the -णें suffix to form a gerundive noun. So आपवणें would not be a verb (note in the above Old Konkani example you have "आपवणें करिता" - करिता is the verb here, meaning "to do", of course). It means "calling". Such -णें nouns are often used in literature. The above sentence "पावलूक [धर्मदूत जावंक] जेजुचें आपवणें आयल्या उपरांत..." means "After Paul got the invitation by Jesus..."
 * I analyse this verb as follows: Konkani and Marathi verbs have the same stems in about 99% of the cases. You can change one to the other by switching the suffix -चे to -णे and vice versa. So the speakers might have analysed आपवणे as being a part of modern Marathi vocabulary even though it isn't.
 * In the third example, the word "still" is very interesting for it posits the hypothesis that a word existed in Old Marathi (that's true; it did) and it was lost in modern Marathi but retained in Konkani. This raises a very interesting possibility that I have entertained in my mind for some years: perhaps Konkani does descend from Old Marathi. Maybe Old Konkani was indeed a dialect of Old Marathi and branched off. If that is accepted to be the case you'll be able to explain the similarity of Konkani म्हण्चे to Marathi म्हणणे because then their most recent ancestor will be Old Marathi mhaṇaṇe and not Prakrit bhaṇaï. It'll then be clearer how both the languages got the initial /mh/.
 * Anyway, sorry for going off track! I'll implement those changes right now; viz. "From mr and influenced by 🇨🇬. Related to the obsolete from 🇨🇬." -- Bhagadatta (talk) 09:41, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This was very interesting! I added the categorization. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान) 16:17, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing it! There may be very few words in that category or maybe only this one ( is another I can think of, though it seems Standard Marathi uses it as well, along side . Goan Marathi differs from Standard Marathi more by pronunciation, grammar, etc. Very interesting indeed! -- Bhagadatta (talk) 01:53, 16 August 2020 (UTC)