Talk:ทราย

I've always wondered why this is written with a dr cluster and with an -r-? Any ideas? Wyang (talk) 04:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I did sketchy research and found that documents from the periods of (1351–1767) and  (1767–1782) show that the term  used to be written with the letter ซ (as ซ าย), but it appears to have already been written with the ทร cluster in documents from the  (1782 onwards). Here are some examples:


 * พระราชพงศาวดารกรุงศรีอยุธยา ฉบับปลีก
 * royal manuscript dated circa 14th–15th century ๑๐๐ เอกสารสำคัญ: สรรพสาระประวัติศาสตร์ไทย ลำดับที่ ๑๓. (2012). Bangkok: ศูนย์หนังสือจุฬาลงกรณ์มหาวิทยาลัย. ISBN 9786167070926. page 167.
 * modern spelling:
 * royal manuscript dated 1681 ประชุมพงศาวดาร ฉบับกาญจนาภิเษก เล่ม ๑. (1999). Bangkok: กองวรรณกรรมและประวัติศาสตร์ กรมศิลปากร. ISBN 9744192151. page 217.
 * royal manuscript dated 1774 ประชุมจดหมายเหตุสมัยอยุธยา ภาค ๑. (1967). Bangkok: สำนักนายกรัฐมนตรี. page 96.
 * modern spelling
 * manuscript dated 1847 British Museum digitised manuscript, page f.11r.
 * modern spelling
 * royal manuscript dated 1774 ประชุมจดหมายเหตุสมัยอยุธยา ภาค ๑. (1967). Bangkok: สำนักนายกรัฐมนตรี. page 96.
 * modern spelling
 * manuscript dated 1847 British Museum digitised manuscript, page f.11r.
 * modern spelling
 * manuscript dated 1847 British Museum digitised manuscript, page f.11r.
 * modern spelling
 * modern spelling
 * modern spelling

I don't know the exact reasons for the spelling change, but my guess is that people probably (mis)understood that the term was from Khmer and then changed its spelling so that it be in line with the other terms borrowed from Khmer [the clusters dr, tr, chr, etc, in Khmer are often corrupted as s and represented by ทร in Thai, such as from,  from ,  from , etc].

As for, it seems to have been so spelt from the outset. All the old documents available to me do not show any different spelling. Here are some examples:


 * stele created around 1341 ประชุมพงศาวดาร ฉบับกาญจนาภิเษก เล่ม ๓. (1999). Bangkok: กองวรรณกรรมและประวัติศาสตร์ กรมศิลปากร. ISBN 9744192186. page 48.
 * modern spelling
 * royal manuscript dated circa 15th–16th century กฎหมายตรา ๓ ดวง ฉบับพิมพ์มหาวิทยาลัยวิชาธรรมศาสตร์และการเมือง เล่ม ๑. (2005). Bangkok: สุขภาพใจ. ISBN 9744096527. page 47.
 * modern spelling
 * royal manuscript dated circa 15th–16th century กฎหมายตรา ๓ ดวง ฉบับพิมพ์มหาวิทยาลัยวิชาธรรมศาสตร์และการเมือง เล่ม ๑. (2005). Bangkok: สุขภาพใจ. ISBN 9744096527. page 47.
 * modern spelling
 * royal manuscript dated circa 15th–16th century กฎหมายตรา ๓ ดวง ฉบับพิมพ์มหาวิทยาลัยวิชาธรรมศาสตร์และการเมือง เล่ม ๑. (2005). Bangkok: สุขภาพใจ. ISBN 9744096527. page 47.
 * modern spelling
 * modern spelling

But I have no idea why it is so spelt (with the จร cluster). Could it be that the term was actually pronounced j r ing in the past [like that is still pronounced with r in some dialects]?

--หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 08:26, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Oh wow! Thank you so much for this detailed and very informative reply. It is extremely interesting and makes a lot of sense. How did you find the attestations in the literature- is there a corpus or database of ancient Thai documents that one can search or reference? Also is there a comprehensive dictionary for terms in dialectal Thai (to look up the equivalents or pronunciations of จริง dialectally etc.)? I have attempted to incorporate part of the information above into the etymology for this word; please see if it is correct. With จริง, it is intriguing that it has always been written with an -r-; perhaps this would make its derivation from Middle Chinese (as written on ) much less likely. Wyang (talk) 09:41, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The documents I used are mostly in printed forms. I'm not sure if there's any online database regarding attestations or Thai dialects. Anyway, digital databases that may be of use include (all are in Thai): Thai Parliament institutional repository (containing digitised series/collections of historical archives, dictionaries of historical or literary terms, old laws, etc), database of inscriptions in Thailand, Chiang Mai University Library heritage collection, database of palm leaf manuscripts from Northern Thailand, database of manuscripts from Western Thailand, Vajirayana Royal Library digital database (containing a large number of literary works – but with a considerable number of typos). --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 17:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * BTW I found the obsolete จรีง with long ee from somewhere I already forgot. In case if it is from Khmer, Chinese can still be on top. :) --Octahedron80 (talk) 11:35, 20 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you both, ! The links to the digital databases are particularly helpful. This has been a fascinating discussion. Wyang (talk) 08:14, 21 August 2017 (UTC)