Talk:ចេក

Hi,

The allophonic palatalization of ក​ /k/ and ង /ŋ/ to [c] and [ɲ] after -េ /ee/ would need to be managed in the IPA rendering module, not in the respelling.

Phonemically speaking (and this is what respelling is about), េក​ and េង are still just /eek/ and /eeŋ/. Palatalization happens in the phonetical space, not the phonemical one.

And even with palatalization, េក​ and េង​ are still distinct from េច and េញ​ as the latter are also accompanied by a shortening of the vowel to ិ (and centralization as is commonly the case when ិ is closed by a "strong" consonant), making them in fact homophonous with ិច and ិញ instead.

In summary:

Orthographic េក​         េច​      ិច

Phonemic     eek        ɨc       ɨc

Phonetic     eic/eec    əc/ɨc    əc/ɨc

As you can see, the respellings ចេច​ you provided generated [cəc], not the [ceic] you expected. Without a change in the IPA module, there is currently no way to force a [eec/eic] rendering.

If you agree, I will proceed to a rollback.

Thx,

Sitaron (talk) 20:24, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I want [ceic] on secondary reading. There are always some words that do not follow the basic rules in a language. --Octahedron80 (talk) 23:37, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Afaik, unpredictable / word-specific pronunciation of consonants is only one of two ways: either silenced (especially when final), or converted from their normal series (especially for sonorants). On top of my head, I can't think any other case, at least none involving change of place of articulation.
 * Afaik, unpredictable / word-specific pronunciation of consonants is only one of two ways: either silenced (especially when final), or converted from their normal series (especially for sonorants). On top of my head, I can't think any other case, at least none involving change of place of articulation.


 * Palatalization of /k, ŋ/ after /ee/ is another type of phenomenon. It is not word-specific, but an optional (while very common) allophonic variation that will strike any velar after /ee/. Formal/careful speech won't apply it, normal/casual speech will. One is not more correct than the other, unlike silencing or convertion.


 * Most descriptions of Khmer phonology apply this allophony consistently as a "basic rule" of the language (Huffman, Khin Sok, Anthelme, Filippi,...). Headley is the weird one out for not following this rule, and I'm surprised he decided to do so only on that one word (ចេក).


 * In fact, in the same way the Khmer IPA module consistantly notates glotalization of final /k/ after some back vowels (e.g. /ɑɑk/ --> [ɑɑʔ]), I believe it should also consistently notate palatalization of final /k/ after front vowels. One of the few other changes I have in mind for this module for when I get there.
 * Sitaron (talk) 13:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC)