Talk:お父さん

お父さん

 * (Moved from User talk:TAKASUGI Shinji — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 09:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC))

I just reworked the entry some, especially the etym. While おもうさま does have the same meaning, I'm confused about how it's relevant to the development of おとうさん -- that seems pretty clear from a couple different dictionaries I've looked at (Shogakukan, Daijirin, and Daijisen), which generally agree on a progression from おととさま to おとっさん to おとうさん. The only source I've seen so far that mentions おもうさん is the JA entry at ja:おとうさん, with that etym added in 2007 by ja:利用者:Mtodo.

Do you have any more detail about a possible おもうさま connection? Curious, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:45, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It was okay to revert it. Actually I’m not sure whether おもうさま is relevant. However, I’m sure おとうさん is not from おとっさん; such phonological change is very unlikely to have happened. おとうさん was created as a class-neutral term in the beginning of the 20th century . — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:27, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Aha, thank you again. FWIW, Shogakukan's entry for おとうさん notes:
 * （明治末期以後、国定教科書により、それまでの「おとっさん」に代わって広く一般に用いられるようになった語）
 * then in おとっさん:
 * （「おととさま」の変化）
 * Daijirin has a bit of a gap, as the おとうさん entry doesn't explicitly mention おとっさん:
 * 〔明治末期以後「お母さん」とともに国定教科書で用いられ一般化した語〕
 * then in おとっさん:
 * 〔「おととさま」の転〕
 * I can't read your first source, as unfortunately the content seems to be region-locked; at any rate, all I get is a message that I'm not allowed to see the content. The goo.ne source also mentions おとっさん and is pretty close to the Shogakukan and Daijirin explanations put together.
 * The おとっさん form is widely attested, and seems to have a role to play in the formation of modern おとうさん, so leaving that out of the etym entirely seems incomplete somehow. The おとっさん > おとうさん shift might not be a naturally-occurring sound shift, but it does still seem to be how the word evolved...
 * One of my Japanese teachers years ago was trying to explain more formal-style letter writing to me, and one thing she said was that geminate consonants were somehow gauche and should be avoided. Do you think a similar sense of class affected the Monbushō's wording decision in the late Meiji?  Perhaps the おもうさま + おとっつぁん description at ja:おとうさん was intended to describe an intentional class-neutral coinage in the late Meiji era, using the general consontantal structure of おとっつぁん / おとっさん but with the longer vowel and avoidance of geminate consonants seen in おもうさま?
 * Thank you so much for your help! -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 03:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * If geminates were more awkward than long vowels, おとっさん would naturally change to おとうさん, but that is probably not the case. There are rather phonological changes from a long vowel to a geminate, such as オーケー → オッケー, and long vowels are more easily lost, such as おてんとうさま → おてんとさま. Considering those tendencies, I think the long vowels in おとうさん and おかあさん were introduced by analogy of おもうさま and おたあさま. But I have no evidence now. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:26, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Ta, thanks once more. I'd noticed that long-to-short shift in borrowed words with long ending vowels, like  >  etc., but I hadn't been aware of the long-to-short + gemination trend.
 * I suppose it's fine to leave the etym as-is until any of us find out more details. Should we move/copy this thread to the お父さん talk page?  Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 08:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have moved the discussion here. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 09:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC)