Talk:やなぎ

Proto-Japonic & Etymology
If it's derived from, then why does Okinawan trigger palatalization as yanaji (< PR *yanagi < PJ *yanankOy; *O implies *u or *o), but doesn't in kii tree (PR *ke < PJ *kəy)? Unlikely internal compound etymology? Reanalysis? Borrowing? Chuterix (talk) 17:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)


 * @Chuterix, looking through https://www.jlect.com/search.php?r=%E6%9C%A8&l=ryukyu&group=words, I see a couple terms where 木 as an element in the Okinawan terms seems to undergo affrication, such as 🇨🇬 ↔ 🇨🇬, or 🇨🇬 ↔ 🇨🇬 cijai (presumably ?).


 * As such, I don't think the reading of 🇨🇬 as requires a reconstruction of any proto form that deviates from the derivation given in JA sources, where the final -gi in JA is treated as .  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
 * (looking back...) @Eirikr I believe these are borrowings from Japanese into Okinawan, or at least a time where Ko/Otsu-rui distinction was lost. Compare also, possibly from pre-Japanese *kO(y [Deleted!])-n(V?)ta-mənə. Chuterix (talk) 12:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Also @Eirikr I believe 露出形・被覆形 arised from older nidan/unknown verb forms. Hence this irregularity., , from.
 * Perhaps must derive from, from the way trees must grow fully, therefore must come up to the top. Compare , from older ideku; c.f. . Therefore, must derive from the ren'yokei. We also see this in PJ  and . See also Wiktionary_talk:About_Proto-Japonic. Chuterix (talk) 12:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Deriving 被服・露出 from verb conjugation paradigms means that you have to derive all such nouns manifesting 被服・露出 forms from verbs -- and this simply isn't possible.
 * I do think that these are probably related phenomena, but I don't think we can sensibly say that the 被服・露出 vowel shift we see in nouns means that these are all deverbals that reflect underlying conjugation patterns.
 * appears first as manebu from the early 800s. The manabu form doesn't appear until the late 900s.  Moveover, manebu was apparently more common in woman-oriented literature, while manabu was more prevalent in man-oriented  kanbun contexts.  It appears that manebu fell out of use as maneru gained prevalence, with manabu remaining.
 * More in the NKD notes, as seen here at Sakura Paris and here at Kotobank.
 * has no realizations anywhere I can find as mana, only as mane. This derives from verb manu, which was conjugated using the shimo nidan paradigm, which has no stem forms ending in -a.
 * This makes the manabu verb form itself a bit mysterious. One possibility is that the -bu auxiliary may have been considered by learned speakers at that time as analogous to the -mu auxiliary, which some modern linguists reconstruct as -amu.  The shift from older and colloquial manebu to newer and (originally) formal manabu thus might have been a kind of hypercorrection.  This supposition is purely my own speculation, however.
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Chuterix (talk) 00:17, 13 July 2023 (UTC)