Talk:他動詞

Definition of 自動詞・他動詞
Challenging the supposed semantic nature of 自動詞 and 他動詞. 2A02:85F:EC32:2291:9828:EF55:23B2:7239 03:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Regarding 自動詞 and 他動詞 being semantic terms rather than syntactic, that claim seems to be demonstrably wrong. Consider the following counterexamples:
 * 戦う is a 自動詞, despite the fact that when you fight someone you're evidently exerting great physical influence over them. This is because it takes arguments with と, which are not considered to be objects.
 * 望む and 待つ are 他動詞. This is because they do take objects (marked with を), even though most people would agree that when you desire something (Aを望む) you're not really doing anything to it or directly affecting it in any way (ditto for when you're waiting for something or someone, Aを待つ).
 * It seems the case to me that 自動詞 and 他動詞 are indeed syntactic terms, although, unlike "(in)transitive" in English, they're assigned on a *per-verb* basis, rather than a per-sentence one, and they denote *potentiality*, rather than in-context *actuality*. That is, 食べる is a 他動詞 because it *can* take an object, even not every instance of it does.
 * On the point of 道を歩く, 歩く is classified as intransitive because 道 there is not considered to be its object (i.e. を is not acting as an object marker). This を is considered to be an "area of traversal" marker that's used with verbs of movement/motion (～を行く、～を歩く、～を走る、～を曲がる、～を回る、～を飛ぶ、～を泳ぐ). There's yet another special, non-object-marking function を. That'd be the "point of exit/separation/detachment" を seen with 出る、降りる、離れる. Hence why all of those are intransitive too. This is supported by the JP article on the accusative case (対格)...
 * 現代日本語の対格を示す助詞「を」には、次のような用法がある.
 * 直接目的語を表す. 意味的には様々のものがある. 「車を見かける」「車を壊す」「ご飯を作る」「小学生を教える」「英語を教える」
 * ある種の移動の起点を表す. 「家を出る」「大学を卒業する」
 * 移動の経由地を表す. 「高速道路を走る」「橋を渡る」「角を曲がる」
 * 下二つの用法は、対格の典型的用法から区別する場合もある.
 * ...which defines three functions of を: direct-object-を (accusative case clitic), detachment-を, and area-を.
 * Makino and Tsutsui's Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar almost agrees too (it actually defines a fourth "emotive" を, which marks the cause of human emotion, as in ～を悲しむ — call me arrogant, but I'm calling that part into question; 悲しむ is classified as transitive afaik, plus they reference semantic reasons for the distinction).
 * Further discussion. 2A02:85F:EC32:2291:9828:EF55:23B2:7239 03:51, 28 June 2023 (UTC)


 * For those interested, see also User_talk:2A02:85F:EC32:2291:9828:EF55:23B2:7239 and a separate related Reddit thread at https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/14ktw3u/comment/jptvsu9/?context=3. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 08:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)