Talk:圜

Definition
Can you show that where did you get the sense "celestial object"? Thanks. Dokurrat (talk) 11:30, 25 April 2018 (UTC)


 * According to 《》 (Moedict Taiwan) and 《字典》 (北京商務印書館), the definition for 圜 under the pronunciation ㄩㄢˊ (yuán) is:


 * 1) 天體 (celestial body)
 * 2) 圓形 (circle)


 * Meanwhile, my copy of 《古代漢語常用字字典 （第五版）》 lists the following definition with relevant citations:


 * 1) (huán) 圍繞 ~《列子·說符》
 * 2) (yuán) 同圓， 圓形.  ~《墨子·經上》 （引） 天 ~《楚辭·屈原·天問》
 * 3) (yuán) 牢獄 ~《周禮·秋官·司寇》
 * 4) (yuán) 指錢幣 ~《漢書·食貨志下》


 * Based on the citation, there is a reference to 九重, which is supposedly the ninth and highest layer of heaven.
 * Last of all, the definition of 天體 is also given in 《·囗部》: 圜：天體也. 从囗瞏聲.
 * The definition on wiktionary is currently given as heaven or celestial body. Depending on context it can mean either one. Based on my understanding, people in ancient China once regarded heaven as being round. Thanks for looking after wiktionary and improving the veracity of its entries.
 * One problem: This specific sense of 圜 is an ancient sense. Can you proof that "celestial body" sense of existed in pre-modern times? That's what I wanted to say. Dokurrat (talk) 09:18, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's what I found on wikisource Chinese → 2,425 entries with the search term 天體 . Here are some of the more prominent entries among them:
 * Based on what I found, it seems that the traditional sense of 天體 may refer to the modern sense of universe. To accomodate the traditional sense of 天體 perhaps "celestial realm" is more appropriate here. KevinUp (talk) 10:25, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * OK. Dokurrat (talk) 10:31, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Please look at the second citation you've found. It's quite unnatural that if 天無體 were to be translated into something like "Heaven has no realm". I think 天體 of this sense could be translated more literal, like "*the physical being of heaven" or "*the substance of heaven" "*the substantial presence of heaven". What's your idea? 10:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The citations given are just examples. Look over here for more examples of the usage of 天體 in pre-modern China. It is hard to directly translate what 天體 actually means in ancient China. This debate is similar to that of  . Does the word  refer to heaven, our physical sky, or a supreme being? The meaning itself seems lost in translation, which is why there are separate wikipedia entries for .   KevinUp (talk) 11:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that the definition of celestial realm fits well within the context of the citation, which gives mention to, the ninth and highest layer of heaven. KevinUp (talk) 11:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Please look at the second citation you've found. It's quite unnatural that if 天無體 were to be translated into something like "Heaven has no realm". I think 天體 of this sense could be translated more literal, like "*the physical being of heaven" or "*the substance of heaven" "*the substantial presence of heaven". What's your idea? 10:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The citations given are just examples. Look over here for more examples of the usage of 天體 in pre-modern China. It is hard to directly translate what 天體 actually means in ancient China. This debate is similar to that of  . Does the word  refer to heaven, our physical sky, or a supreme being? The meaning itself seems lost in translation, which is why there are separate wikipedia entries for .   KevinUp (talk) 11:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that the definition of celestial realm fits well within the context of the citation, which gives mention to, the ninth and highest layer of heaven. KevinUp (talk) 11:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)