Talk:月日夜

RFV discussion: July 2022–November 2023
Added by (unpaired sock). Reading tsukuhiyo (OJP tukipi1 yo1) doesn't exist. Citation Eastern Old Japanese MYS poem #4378 beings with tsukuhi ya wa... (OJP tukupi1 ya pa, "as months and days..."). ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 07:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed, should be deleted as "created in error". Unfortunate, but an understandable mistake, given the difficulties in reading OJP.
 * The text where this appears looks like it's actually +.
 * See the rendition of MYS poem 20.4378 here at the UVA site, giving the Old Japanese text, a modernized kanji + kana spelling of same, and then just the kana -- this clearly shows that other scholars parse the as  +.
 * See also the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten entry for here at Kotobank.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:54, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Apparently there is disagreement about this among scholars. Vovin, 日本国語大辞典 & デジタル大辞泉 Rdoegcd (talk) 20:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Interesting, thank you.
 * I am puzzled by Vovin's romanization of the  spelling as tukï pi, when the middle character  has only ever had a reading ku, and has never been attested with any reading kï (also notated as ki2), thought by some to be formed by ancient fusion of ku or ko + i.
 * I also find disagreement with Vovin's contention that +  was not used in Old Japanese.  The NKD entry here at Kotobank cites  poem 1783 as one usage example that is clearly Old Japanese.  Even parsing this as yo pa, there are Old Japanese attestations of particle  + particle, as shown here in the NKD.
 * Those points aside, Vovin does note that there is no attestation in either Western or Eastern Old Japanese for the phrase.
 * Searching more online now in writing this post, Google results show that the string appears aplenty in the Japanese web, albeit most commonly as a business name, read as .  I haven't the time to analyze the hits in detail, and I cannot tell if this name usage passes muster for WT:CFI.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr I can't comment on the problems you mentioned, but the way 日本国語大辞典 writes the poem in their entry for 月日 and the lack of an entry for 月日夜 suggest that they treat the line in question as noun 月日 (つくひ) and noun 夜 in juxtaposition rather than a compound noun 月日夜 (つくひよ), and then particle は. So however 夜 is to be interpreted, I have no problem with deleting this entry. Rdoegcd (talk) 03:16, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
 * don't mind too with this being deleted. Speaking of kï/ki2, there is poem 4390 where it seems to be read as ko2ko2ri instead of the usual ko2ko2ro2 like the rest, what are your thoughts? For me, should be the latter despite being from a southern EOJP dialect and Daijisen confirms that it is a likely misreading. ～ POKéTalker（＝◉＝） 07:17, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

RFV failed. Cnilep (talk) 23:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @User:Poketalker, a belated reply -- just based on JA references like Daijisen and the NKD, which say that 里 was also used as the man'yōgana for, I must concur with them that ここり appears to be a mis-reading that arose later, once the details of ancient kana spellings were forgotten. FWIW, Kōjien has a similar note, albeit with slightly less detail. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:57, 17 January 2024 (UTC)


 * thanks, will edit at some point so to unify both etymologies 1 and 2; the -ri misreading to be put under as a usage note, with reference of course. ～ POKéTalker（＝◉＝） 07:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)