Talk:檸檬

Your last revision |mn_note "lêng-bông" - Mainland seems to run counter to TDJ, unless Taiwan Min Nan has migrated to "lê-bóng" only. Hongthay (talk) 02:15, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It should be dated in Taiwan since THCWD does not have lêng-bông. Modified accordingly. — justin(r)leung { (t...) 02:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Philippine Hokkien
Just wanted to check what the POJ means here. How is the neutral tone pronounced? — justin(r)leung { (t...) 13:51, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My take on this is just to remove the pronunciation. I don't recognize this as Hokkien really. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Justinrleung The speakers I know of say it like le22mong00, but I think speakers have in mind, but they just have Hokkien accent. I think I put this in before because Vicente Lim (1941) listed it as a Hokkien word as well along with other fruits in the Ph Hokkien he wrote about at p.159, writing 6 columns for:
 * "華 Chinese", "廈門音 Amoy Pron.", "英 English", "西代英音 Pronunciation", "菲 Tagalog", "西 Spanish"
 * "檸檬", "limon", "Lemon", "lemon", "Dayap", "Lemon"
 * Oh yeah, this was also one of those words that was inside the "菲律賓咱人話（Lán-lâng-uē）研究" paper of 蔡惠名 (2017)
 * Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What is 00? That is not a valid tone description. Also if it’s 22, then it’s not lê (if the following tone is neutral). — justin(r)leung { (t...) 19:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Justinrleung 00 or 0 as in neutral tone. it drops down to no tone. Which tone would it be if pertaining to non-sandhied tone? lě--mong? Mlgc1998 (talk) 19:51, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I just want to add to the discussion here that Vicente Lim isn't really representative of what we speak today, and the 蔡惠名 paper also has things that we don't agree with, but they give different pronunciations, like Vicente gives "limon", and 蔡惠名 gives "lemen". As for what speakers say today, my understand is that they just say the English word with interpretation of tones. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Mar vin kaiser @Justinrleung I've had some deeper thought again for the past days reminiscing why I added "lê--mong" last 2022 besides finding it in Vicente Lim (1941) and 蔡惠名 (2017). I think I was thinking last 2022 about considerations on how blurry the line was in dealing with loanwords in Hokkien and I was wondering where exactly on the blurry line was that separated what was considered a legit "loanword" in Hokkien vs a word from another language that's merely been codeswitched due to a lack of a common Hokkien term in the mind of a typical native speaker.
 * I remember before talk with some friends on a groupchat before how 蔡惠名 (2017)'s paper mentioned supposed loanwords in Ph. Hokkien which included supposed English loanwords like, , and , which were supposedly directly loaned into Ph Hokkien, but this claim or proposition about those specific terms as "loanwords" into Ph Hokkien for at least the last two were usually ridiculed by Ph Hokkien-speaking readers I had met and spoken with, except the first one about due to a certain /le˩ tsu˧ tsʰai˥˩/ that we still sometimes hear today in Ph. Hokkien.
 * Then later I saw in Vicente Lim (1941), some supposed loanwords that caught my eye that he also listed:
 * "咬九 ka kaó Cocoa coco Kokoa Cocoa" (p.96) (last two actually referring to and  respectively)
 * "咖啡 kape Coffee cofi Kape Café" (p.94 and p.114)
 * "檸檬 limon Lemon lemon Dayap Lemon" (p.159)
 * along with other Hokkien terms (many of whom still used today I still regularly hear and some perhaps we are unfamiliar of or unheard of now) effectively claiming that those (on the 2nd column) too are Ph Hokkien. Now, I think I was wondering about this last 2022, because "ka-pé" in Ph Hokkien is still very much used in Ph Hokkien as the only term Ph Hokkien speakers usually know of for "Coffee", just as is the common default term for "Coffee" in Tagalog today. Now as for "Cocoa bean",  is still used in Tagalog as the only term Tagalog speakers use, unless they codeswitch to, although a discussion about "cocoa beans" in the Philippines is not that common unless one is frequently speaking to baristas or cafe owners or something like that, so in Ph Hokkien, I do not remember explicitly hearing about usage of "ka kaó" or something similar yet but it is conceivable to agree with Vicente Lim (1941) about a supposed "ka kaó" he would use for Ph Hokkien as well, especially that those syllables conform to Hokkien phonology. Now on the topic of "Lemon", it is quite similar in that, we do not usually talk about lemons normally anyways in Ph Hokkien to hear about "lê--mong" but I remember having asked a native speaker how to say it and got him to somehow say it some time in 2022 and it was like /le22 mong0/, and normally the average ph hokkien speaker and average tagalog speaker doesn't know of any other word for the "lemon fruit" in mind besides these days , so it fits the same situation as the term for "coffee" and "cocoa bean" in that there is a blurry line where a word is considered a legit "loanword" vs mere codeswitching that's still the word from the source language.
 * Now, I added "lê--mong" before cuz I think I wanted to test that and see where exactly the line was that made a word a legit loanword into Hokkien, especially that 檸檬 for Hokkien already exists for all the other Hokkien dialects, like does it have to be slightly reshaped from the etymon conforming to Hokkien phonology to start to be considered as a legit Hokkien loanword? does it have to even follow Hokkien phonology strictly? does it have to veer off to a slightly different meaning? does it have to be a word that's frequently used in the midst of an otherwise full Hokkien sentence or phrase? etc etc. These were some considerations I had pondered upon before last 2022 as far as I remember. Whether or not, "lê--mong" stays on this page tho is not a big concern to me, but what happens to it is something for study of mine to gauge that blurry line of when a term can be said as definitely a legit loanword. Mlgc1998 (talk) 16:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The other one, my dad was talking about lemons, and he just said the English word "lemon" with tones, like "lé-mòn", something like that. And not "lê--mong", the way you typed it. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Mar vin kaiser the one that ends in "mon" and how sure that the falling tone there is not also a neutral tone. These supposed "loanwords" will of course be in free variation or have multiple different pronunciations just like many other "loanwords" and ph placenames that we haven't added to wikt yet which the exact tones were the main contention anyways why those others haven't been added yet. I put the "lê--mong" before just to update what Vicente Lim (1941) was trying to say with his "limon" that he must've had in mind with. Mlgc1998 (talk) 11:17, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Do speakers that you know actually say it like "le22mong00" with an "-ng" ending? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Mar vin kaiser As you know, Hokkien has a limited set of syllables due to the accent of native speakers or for some reason like that. I've thought about the "lé-mòn" that you mentioned and I think I thought about that years ago too but I didn't put that kind of spelling cuz Hokkien don't naturally have "mon" syllables. There are nasalized "bun" syllables tho sometimes and perhaps that's what you heard. For my dad before, I heard a "mong" syllable at the end as nasalized form of "bong", but the nasal ending at the end is a little weaker. This is kinda like the Hokkien placenames trying to approximate the mainstream known word, but their native Hokkien accents leave them to sound like that. I think I put a ph pronunciation there as well because all the other Hokkien dialects have an available pronunciation and I imagine a Hokkien learner from the Philippines would try and pick something and if they were to pick something, then a Hokkien accent closest to the that native speakers have in mind anyways would be the safest updated choice if not defaulting to codeswitching eludes the mindset. If there are multiple more pronunciations that other native Hokkien speakers say out there, I think it's understandable since they are likely trying to approximate  and a century ago, speakers would've been trying to approximate  as well anyways, so it's bound that there would be room for variation on a blurry word like this. Mlgc1998 (talk) 12:26, 5 June 2024 (UTC)