Talk:歌う

Etymology
Heya, some notes re: Gogen Yurai Jiten (GYJ) and the etymology for utau.

Regarding the verb utau:
 * The editors at the GYJ seem to be unaware of Old Japanese auxiliary / verb suffix ふ (entry at Kotobank), which attaches to the -a ending of yodan verbs and indicates repeating action or ongoing state. This auxiliary was very productive in older stages of the language, with other examples including  →,  → ,  → ,  → ,  → , etc. etc.
 * Considering the semantics of and, a derivation of  + auxiliary  would make sense, and the phonology is a perfect match.  Meanwhile,  +  fits less well: uti + apu in Proto-Japonic would usually become utepu in Old Japanese, not utapu.

Regarding the noun uta:
 * The GYJ entry for うた suggests a possible derivation from うたう based on the 訴う spelling. However, this is a mistake.  In order of historical development for this verb:
 * うるたふ → うったふ → うたふ
 * See also the NKD entry at Kotobank for the verbs spelled with the kanji.  Note that there is a listing of 連用形 form うたへ cited to the  of 720, based on the kanbun line 「五曰絶餮棄欲明辨訴訟. 」  That said, this is based on the Iwasaki Edition kun'yomi, and that edition didn't appear until the late 900s, early 1000s, after the first appearance of うるたふ in roughly 850, and the entry indicates that this うたう arose from deletion or non-marking of the sokuon caused by contraction of the medial -ru-: urutafu → uttafu → utafu.
 * In light of the oldest attested meaning of urutapu etc., basically "to bring a dispute to a higher authority for arbitration and judgment", this doesn't seem like a good fit for utapu "to chant, to sing, to recite poetry to a beat".


 * The GYJ entry also suggests a possible cognacy with / .  This also seems unlikely: phonologically, we have no mechanism by which to shift the unchanging root of this verb from utu to uta; and semantically, the meaning doesn't match.
 * Separately, we do see occasional cases of ancient nouns ending in -a that appear to be derived from verbs. The example that comes to mind at the moment is, from.

In summary, I do not think that the historical record and known sound shift patterns support any of the derivations that the GYJ lists. The verb utau is certainly related to the noun uta, and both are almost certainly related to the verb utu. A derivation from uti + apu would not work phonologically. And any connection to urutapu would seem to require time travel. :)

Anyway, that's all I have time for at the moment. Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:15, 1 November 2022 (UTC)


 * @Eirikr, I was thinking about compound of irrealis of 🇰🇲 in referencing to shouting the lyrics out, but I couldn’t find evidence that this theory exists.
 * Again thank you very much for your information. See you later! Chuterix (talk) 00:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC)