Talk:澪標

Quote for 身を尽くし ateji spelling
The supplied source text here has the kana string "みをつくし", but not the kanji. Also, I cannot find a rendering that includes the 澪標 kanji. I'm moving this here for now.


 * 1188, ' (book 13, poem 806; also ', poem 88)

Also, 澪標 is not a buoy -- it is a, and thus cannot be "tossed". かりね here is a poetic pun on and. 葦の仮寝 as a whole phrase refers to a one-night stand for casual sex. 難波江 may also be a pun, as this is both a place name -- Naniwa Bay or Inlet -- and a surname.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:40, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

, here's one from the titular chapter of The Tale of Genji:


 * c. 1020,  (Miotsukushi, poem 13)

Is this a better usage example? If it is, this is a good replacement; else, there's probably not a good resource containing the kanji compound. POKéTalker (talk) 04:35, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The key issue here is that the sense describes using the 澪標 kanji spelling as ateji for the 身を尽くし sense. As such, we need a quote that specifically uses the 澪標 kanji spelling as ateji for the 身を尽くし sense.  Quotes like the two above use the kana みをつくし, without using the kanji spelling -- and as such, these quotes are not useful for documenting the use of the kanji spelling.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:35, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Understood, in fact there are some useful ones: Daijirin and the digital Daijisen have already given examples in their entries (from the Man'yōshū and Shokushi-naishinnō-shū). In addition to the Daijirin entry regarding the example in the Man'yōshū book 13 poem no 3429, a supporting one is Ogura Sansō entry on mi o tsukushi (that uses the kanji spelling). A counter is this: University of Viriginia text initiative page (which does not use the spelling). What do you suggest? Will do the necessary edits once settled.


 * 12th century, -shū (poem 273)

Otherwise, You may be right; there is likely no literary evidence for the kanji spelling in medieval usage. Hopefully, modern literature may have that ateji, in my opinion. Domo, POKéTalker (talk) 00:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Just re-analyzed the Daijirin entry. It appears that miotsukushi is an example of ' (wordplay), in terms of the famous channel-markers in Naniwa (itself an '), see also this link. Another poem with some translations that may make sense with the wordplay (you can analyze if you want):


 * c. 950, ' (book 13, poem 860; also ', poem 20)

, is there a reason for a usage with the "ateji spelling"? Thought we were looking for good translations given the wordplay sense. Also, is this reading jukujikun, based from the other two readings (miojirushi and reihyō)? --POKéTalker (talk) 02:50, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * @POKéTalker -- Re: ateji, it would be nice if we could find one, simply as historical evidence of this kind of usage, but it's not a requirement.
 * Re: reading (miotsukushi), I suppose this could be analyzed as jukujikun, but the semantic shift from "sign / signal" (shirushi) to "-'s stake / -'s pole" (tsu kushi) strikes me as perhaps too much of a stretch. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, re: 身を尽くし, I've reworded that bit of the etym to focus more on the usage as a pun, rather than specifically on the spelling. Ateji requires that the lemma spelling be used, whereas punning does not.  :)  So if you'd like to throw in one of these other punning waka examples, I think the changed etym wording now makes that appropriate.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:51, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Finished adding an example, the jukujikun part may be left to someone else if you're still unsure. --POKéTalker (talk) 18:48, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Quote for miojirushi reading
The Saigyo.net text (http://www.saigyo.net/saigyo/text/sanka_yomei.txt) gives a kana rendering of みをじるし:

広瀬川　渡りの沖の　みをじるし　水嵩ぞ深き　五月雨の頃

Confusingly, the online text version at the University of Virginia (http://jti.lib.virginia.edu/japanese/saigyo/SaiSank.html) gives a kana rendering of みおつくし:

ひろ瀬川渡の沖のみをつくし水嵩ぞふらしさみだれのころ

, can you find any other texts that use this term with this reading? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 03:56, 30 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Found this: Magumagu! Saigyō Jiten link, it appears that the miotsukushi and miojirushi readings were both used in Iwanami and Shinchō, respectively. The Daijisen example uses miojirushi. That's the best of my ability, if it's not enough, please reply. --POKéTalker (talk) 00:56, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * @POKéTalker, very interesting, thank you. I feel like a note might be in order, probably at the end of the etym section(s?), just mentioning that different sources list the reading variously as みをつくし or みをじるし, even for the same source texts, and that the variance might suggest dialectal or historical variation.  I'm not sure how best to format that, however.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:44, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Me neither, but if you want, how about a usage note saying "some versions of texts (or wakashū, for example) interchange miotsukushi with miojirushi and vice versa due to dialectical and historical variations" or something like that? --POKéTalker (talk) 02:50, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Added a note to the etyms for both the miotsukushi and miojirushi readings. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:16, 2 November 2017 (UTC)