Talk:盂蘭盆

Chinese etymology


Isn't this more likely, both historically and semantically, from 🇨🇬 rather than from 🇨🇬? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:38, 29 August 2018 (UTC)


 * An informative paper discussing the origin of this is: Ensho Ashikaga (1951), “Notes on Urabon (‘Yü Lan P'ên, Ullambana")” (pdf), Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 71, No. 1, pp. 71–75. The conclusion of the article was that “the term ullambana (lambana, or avalambana) is a generally accepted word for urabon”, but it would be good to incorporate some of the theories proposed previously from the article into the etymology section as well to explain the absence of word in Sanskrit. Wyang (talk) 08:26, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * @Wyang -- There's also the problem that the purported Sanskrit etymon is semantically ... odd for this context: ullambana would appear to be the present participle or gerund of ullamb, “to hang (intransitive)” (Spoken Sanskrit entry, Sanskrit Dictionary entry). Meanwhile, the Pali ullumpana, “raising, helping, saving”, is listed in sources as a derivative of ullumpati, “to raise, to help, to save”, which semantically makes a lot more sense (Pali Text Society entries for ullumpana, ullumpati; Buddha Vacana Pali Dictionary interface, doesn't allow direct linking to term entries).  Granted, the PI is likely derived from the SA: SA ullamb (“to hang”, intrans) → SA ullambayati (“to hang something up”, causative, transitive) → PI ullumpati (“to raise”, transitive) [Note: this is my own speculation, I don't have a source for this specific derivation.].
 * I'm uncertain of a few things, though.
 * Does Pali correspond regularly in any other borrowings to Middle Chinese ?
 * Does the second vowel in the Pali,, correspond regularly in any other borrowings to Middle Chinese ?
 * Did Pali even exist yet? Or was some other Prakrit the source?
 * Are there any other Sanskrit dictionaries or other sources that indicate a more relevant sense for ullambana?
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:10, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * -- Didn't see your link at first, just finished reading the paper now. Interesting that he reached the same conclusion re: SA vs. PI, and fascinating alternative hypothesis re: syncretism between Taoism and the new imported Buddhism.  Thank you for finding and posting that!  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:18, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * , the bit about SA ullambana isn't the paper's conclusion, but rather the author's restatement of the currently accepted "common knowledge". Excerpting, my additions in [square brackets]:

 Urabon, ji̯u lân b'uənc in ancient Chinese (now pronounced Yü lan p'ên), is thought to have been derived from the Sanskrit ullambana. [Intro on page 71, 2nd paragraph] ... Upon the problem of the Sanskrit term, a new theory was propounded by Junjiro Takakusu which might be acceptable. According to his theory, there is a Pāli expression ullumpana which means 'guidance, relief, salvation,' and it is a common occurrence that ullumpana, colloquialized, becomes ullumbana; when this ullumbana was introduced into Chinese Turkestan (Hsi Yüd), it was mistakenly thought to be [Sanskrit] ullambana. Thus, properly speaking, the original word for urabon or ji̯u lân b'uənc, is not [Sanskrit] ullambana but [Pāli] ullumpana. [2nd full paragraph, left column on page 72]
 * ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:59, 31 August 2018 (UTC)


 * No worries. The paragraph on pg. 75 was what I quoted ... :) I've briefly mentioned that theory in the etymology section. Let me know if you have any suggestions, and please feel free to expand. Wyang (talk) 01:29, 1 September 2018 (UTC)