Talk:紅

"nobe + ni"
Found these: blog entry, PDF document

It appears that beni is derived from nobeni: (extend/stretch + red earth/vermillion). Any objections/problematics? --POKéTalker (talk) 04:02, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


 * @POKéTalker -- The blog entry is interesting but not reliable enough to count as a source. The academic paper, however, looks solid at first skim-through.  Interesting stuff, thank you for the links!  :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:56, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, none of the these have the kana spelling to determine the Old Japanese kanazukai of nobe:
 * , text here
 * , text here
 * , text here, ?
 * What do you suggest? --POKéTalker (talk) 05:33, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * @POKéTalker -- Modern is from classical  (c.f. the Daijirin entry on Weblio), which was 上二段 for intransitive (perhaps a defective development from an older 四段活用 form?), and 下二段 for transitive.  We know that the 上代特殊仮名遣い for the -e stem endings in 下二段 was 乙類, the same as for 已然形, so we know it was.
 * Was that what you needed? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:00, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Question is half-answered, . Like be, no is also subject to the kanazukai. Something that might help: one likely cognate would be . Just recently edited . Based on the MYS example, might be ; therefore explaining the drop of the no and then the modern word beni. Looks good? Will edit first thing tomorrow. --POKéTalker (talk) 07:07, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * @POKéTalker -- It's a long shot, but poem 986 is the only man'yōgana spelling I can find that might apply. And that's assuming that the おほのびにかも refers to 大延びにかも, which notably isn't given in the 訓読 line.  If this のび is for the verb のぶ / のびる, then it's  as the man'yōgana used is 能.
 * If you know of online searchable versions of the 日本書紀 or 古事記 using the original man'yōgana, like the online MYS, that would rock! But my only copies of those are dead-tree, and modernized (non-man'yōgana spellings).  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:55, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


 * , here are some translations of the MYS poem:
 * Does not help much, but this ōnobi might be a cognate.
 * For the online texts you mentioned, how about this one: Himiko-Y (updates regularly); it's probably easy to get lost on this site. Just click on 古事記をそのまま読む and you might get to see the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki originals and probably some kanbun annotations or the hopeful manyōgana. Maybe the answers are in there. Any other online resources, just ask away. Domo, --POKéTalker (talk) 23:40, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Does not help much, but this ōnobi might be a cognate.
 * For the online texts you mentioned, how about this one: Himiko-Y (updates regularly); it's probably easy to get lost on this site. Just click on 古事記をそのまま読む and you might get to see the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki originals and probably some kanbun annotations or the hopeful manyōgana. Maybe the answers are in there. Any other online resources, just ask away. Domo, --POKéTalker (talk) 23:40, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

"shift from heni"
Another theory is found on the Nihon Dai Jisho (page 645):  へに　〈第一上〉　名. ｛（経粉）｝おしろいニ和シタべに（臙脂）. 類ヲ粧フ. ＝桃色オシロイ＝肉|ニクオシロイ.

べに　（・・・）　名. ｛紅｝［前ノ転|轉］. 紅花ノ瓣カラ製煉シタ紅色ノモノ. ＝臙脂. サヒガニ. which maybe the original compound? Also, what's ? --POKéTalker (talk) 03:26, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Etymology draft


Etymology 2
→

Originally derived from two terms:  +. The no was dropped in later development.


 * @POKéTalker -- Suggested change:



Etymology 2
→ →

Uncertain. Probably originally a compound of, with the initial no later dropping out.

Not found in the oldest sources. Appears in the historical record from around the ??? period.


 * Main points:
 * The * prefix on the IPA: Since we haven't found actual source text evidence of nobeni as a preceding form, the * indicates that these are hypothetical. If you do have source text evidence for either 上代特殊仮名遣い or the more recent phonetics, omit the * from the relevant IPA.
 * Uncertain: You're finding good sources, but so far, these appear to be compelling theories, and not the broadly accepted etymology. I don't think we can safely say just "this is the way it is" without misleading readers into thinking that the etym we give here is more widely known and accepted than it is.
 * Last line: One broad dissatisfaction I have with many of the entries here at EN WT is the sparseness of the etymologies, for terms in any language. We often don't have any information on when a given term first appeared, or how usage may have shifted over time, or how oddball senses arose.  Where we have that kind of information for JA entries, I think we should include it.
 * That said, I haven't had time to read all the way through the PDF you linked, and the text isn't searchable, so I haven't found where she says when the べに reading first appears. If you have that to hand, please add it.
 * I must sign off from WT for the rest of the day. Thank you for your help and findings!  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:15, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Continuing the discussion
, please try this: Kojiruien link ( section, pages 752-757)

It appears that the beni term first appeared in Edo period documents. If that is the case, is it likely connected to Bengal, for example ? Likely because safflowers grow around there at that time or related to the "stretching cinnabar"... --POKéTalker (talk) 00:08, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Etymology draft #2


Etymology 2
Derivation uncertain, term first attested in documents. Theories include:


 * Originally a compound of, the of classical verb , modern  + , with the initial no later dropping out:
 * A shift from heni, itself a compound of, the of verb  + :
 * A shift from, shortened from , where iron oxide (having the same color with crimson dyes) was imported to Japan at that time. The shift is seen in and :
 * A shift from, shortened from , where iron oxide (having the same color with crimson dyes) was imported to Japan at that time. The shift is seen in and :
 * A shift from, shortened from , where iron oxide (having the same color with crimson dyes) was imported to Japan at that time. The shift is seen in and :

, this is my next draft. The old dictionaries point to the second, likely influenced by the third; either the is probably substituted for  or  is jukujikun; what do you think? --POKéTalker (talk) 19:33, 14 March 2018 (UTC)


 * This looks good. I agree that the 粉 is probably juku for 丹.  One quibble -- the shift to /beni/ was probably before the development of /he/, probably during the /fe/ stage.  We know from the  that the initial /h/s were all /f/s in 1603 (at least, in the dialect(s) recorded then by the Portuguese).
 * Also, it'd be great if you could dig up refs for the 延べ丹 and 弁柄 derivation theories, even if they're dead-tree resources or otherwise unlinkable (such as due to paywalling).
 * Thank you for your work on this. It's a rather puzzling etymology.  :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:21, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Development
, the derivation was right in our noses! Daijiten, volume 22, Heibonsha (mid 1930s, page 287), the Wamyōshō, volume 14 mentions the shift from  heni → beni appears to be attested in The Pillow Book and Genji; the he is continuative form of classical verb, shimo nidan, while ni is. This means:

What do you think? Original WMS meaning was some kind of "crimson face powder". WIll do the necessary edit(s) soon. ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 04:35, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * @POKéTalker -- Interesting, except I don't see where the spelling comes in?  The Daijiten's  entry in context seems pretty clearly to be an alternative spelling of .  Also, semantically, “to pass” + “deep red earth” doesn't quite make sense to me.  The  part is sensible enough, but the  doesn't fit.  Also, to get he from the verb, as you not, you'd have to use the ren'yōkei -- which, by definition, only attaches to inflecting words -- so the following term in any such compound cannot be a noun.  To combine the verb with a noun, you'd need to use the rentaikei instead, which would produce heruni.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * , it's probably unlikely that heni might be physically spelt as . The only problem as of now is the he-/be-...
 * Just edited, if you have the time, you can check on it (even though it might not make sense with this). It may help with the translating by editing articles that might derive beni.
 * Also, here are some terms that might help with derivation:, and . Nie might make sense, since there's a similar development: → . Do you have any other terms that might help derive he-? Remember, WMS has  for he(2)ni (red face powder); and  is a variant kanji for . ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 04:09, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Belatedly coming back to this. Some additional thoughts:
 * There are plenty other examples of 連用形 + noun: 出水 (idemizu), 食べ物, 見せ顔, etc. Ignore my comment above -- while strictly grammatically true, the 連体形 is clearly not a hard-and-fast requirement for forming compounds.
 * I don't think this ever manifested as . The 1603  already has it as beni as viewable here, while feni is also not viewable here.
 * The →  shift is a regular phonological evolution that can be seen in many languages.  The  →  shift is kinda bizarre and unusual, and really only makes sense historically in Japanese when you realize that  used to be.
 * ・ might be a good candidate. I did find one compound where nie shifted to ne:, apparently a shift from nie no uo.  However, that compound also points to the etymon's underlying meaning of "new", cognate with the  in 新潟, etc, from the basic idea that the foodstuffs offered up at shrines were generally the first portions of the first crop.
 * Another odder possibility: ・. Perhaps unlikely, but is there any chance that this was used as a binding agent for cinnabar?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

"Popular"
Can we add exactly when this term began to be used to mean "in vogue" or "popular" in Chinese? Is it a neologism driven by Internet slang? If so, it should be labeled as a neologism and some of the earliest usages should be presented. 76.190.213.189 18:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)