Talk:襅

chihaya and chihayaburu
, Nihon Dai Jisho (page 528) says it is probably derived directly from, any thoughts? The only chihaya in my current research is in the chihaya-bito poem in the .

On another note, Daijirin says that is the one derived from  but Nihon Dai Jisho probably has different derivations:, and  +. Any thoughts on these? --POKéTalker (talk) 20:01, 8 November 2017 (UTC)


 * @POKéTalker -- FWIW, 千早人 apparently refers to the Uji clan, who were known for being fast and furious (i.e. 逸速し). So I think the Kojiki's chihaya is this same term, deriving from prefix ichi meaning “extremely” and haya as the stem or root of  /.
 * Chihayaburu is the of plain form chihayabu, from ichihayabu, derived from 逸速し.
 * Note that the 助動詞 bu is 上二段 with a modern plain form of biru. The buru form conforms with the expected Classical attributive.  This is the same 助動詞 as in, and it's almost certainly cognate with the 助動詞 mu, cognate with  and .  The bu / biru and mu 助動詞 (and related transitive / intransitive forms meru and maru) all have a basic underlying sense of “to seem like, to look like”.
 * The Nihon Dai Jisho's listing of ichihayafu is this same ichihayabu, omitting the ten-ten mark from the ふ for some reason.
 * The hypothetical 千磐破る → chi iha yaburu would have to lose the extra i to become chihayaburu, with no evidence for any term 千磐 chiha, and then somehow change from the 五段活用 pattern of to become 上二段 instead, with no such putative stem verb yabu anywhere in the historic record, and thereby somehow generate the attested chihayabu as a kind of weird and unprecedented backformation.  In light of the derivations of the constituent identifiable parts, Nihon Dai Jisho theory connecting this to  sounds very much like a folk etymology, and is probably best excluded, and only mentioned (specifically as a folk etymology) if the story about it is commonly known.
 * HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:10, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, ; the hypothetical appears in the , poem 558 to be exact, like other chihayaburu poems that have various kanji spellings there.

For the chihaya hito poem, here is the comparison: The Kojiki poem 51 uses chihayaburu instead of chihaya hito, there's the usage example at. Can't find any proper translation for the last one, Aston's translation seems outdated. Looks like chihaya hito itself is also an epithet (as in makurakotoba or pillow word) like chihayaburu. You're right about the allusion to the Uji clan, which is homophone with the name of the river.
 * 720,  (poem 42)
 * (poem 52)
 * 720,  (poem 43)
 * 720,  (poem 43)

Speaking of epithets, currently using "Phrase" for now, but there is an ongoing discussion about adding epithet senses.

Domo, --POKéTalker (talk) 05:06, 8 December 2017 (UTC)


 * @POKéTalker -- Some musings on the terms and poems:
 * FWIW, the KDJ lists 千早人 as a makurakotoba for the Uji clan, and 千早振る as a makurakotoba for Uji the place, for things related to fierce kami, and for specific kami and shrines. In light of the usage distinction, I suspect the poems above all refer to Uji the clan, not Uji the river.
 * ・ and both refer to a river ford, somewhere along a river where the stream is low enough to cross on foot.  (Aston's mention of a "ferry" seems confused.)
 * → Put together, I think the poems are talking about a river ford used by the Uji clan.
 * has, as best I can tell, always been transitive. So the English renderings above that talk about a tree standing or growing, intransitively, don't seem to fit.
 * The terms adzusayumi and mayumi are a bit murky. I note over at 梓 that the term adzusa may have referred to a tree in genus Euonymus, and the マユミ article describes such a tree.  It's possible then that both of these terms in the poems were referencing a single (type of) tree.  It's also notable that adzusayumi can refer to any ceremonial bow regardless of the wood used, as described at 梓弓.  In light of the verb tateru, I'm inclined to think the poems are talking about a bow placed upright to mark the ford, but without more of the poem, I'm uncertain.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:26, 8 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Expanded the last two poems in full above, but if you want, the link to the poems can be found here (article about the chihayaburu pillow word in the Man'yōshū) if you don't mind with the missing kanji which is.
 * Tateru being intransitive, maybe it's only in the scope of Old Japanese, many defenitions here, found nothing on in kobun. Reading the translations, looks like the meanings have been more loose over the course of a century. The theme, maybe, reflecting one's superior and a certain her?
 * Given the timeframe between KJK and NS, did Ōyamamori-no-miko (did he write these?) rewrote the poem to change slightly the meanings?
 * So in summary, chihaya hito is ichihayashi (or a certain derivation) + hito, given that chihaya directly means a kind of clothing? This is the first step in creating and . --POKéTalker (talk) 23:35, 8 December 2017 (UTC)


 * @POKéTalker -- Re: たてる, found what I missed earlier. Listed in the KDJ as an older sense for, and cited in the entry using the 立てる conjugation in the poem above as an example:
 * 草木などが地から生える. また、棒などが下の面に垂直にささる.
 * ふむ、勉強になりました. （＾＾）
 * Re: the clothing, I think the sense development probably went ichihaya(shi): "very fast, furiously fast" → chihaya: "(literally 'fast-ness'?) sleeve tie-back to allow someone to work faster".
 * Re: the rest, I'll have to look into it later -- stuff IRL is demanding my attention. :)  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:27, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


 * , understood, we have our time differences. Please take it at your own pace; my patience never runs thin.
 * Also, added entries, , , , and ; if you want to help add any senses and/or other things. It would appear that ichihaya stem is the original derivation to chihaya (cloth/overcoat) and chihaya hito/-bito (pillow word).
 * Domo, ～ POKéTalker（═◉═） 02:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)