Talk:Christmas present

From RFV
Rfv-sense: The current or upcoming Christmas. This sense was added today in response to the ongoing deletion discussion about the other sense. I'm doubtful that it can be cited outside of the phrase Ghost of Christmas Present. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 02:31, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hm, can you check the validity of these three sources? I'm not exactly sure what cites constitutes as being valid for the purposes of CFI, and I may be terribly biased towards keeping this. (First cite btw says "Christmas past becomes Christmas present" but it's cut off.) TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 03:11, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The first quote looks okay to me; I've added it. Google Books won't show me the third quote. As for the second quote, it is not clear to me that it supports the sense in question - the characters in that book are apparently experiencing a Christmas Carol-like vision of past, present, and future Christmases. So their "Christmas Present" seems like it's referring to the vision they're having, not just "the current or upcoming Christmas". —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 12:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you do another check please? TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 23:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This appears to be a grammar mistake. Should be "Christmas, present and past".
 * As this use is in a title rather than a sentence, it's hard to say if it adequately conveys meaning, as required by the criteria.
 * Same as above.
 * Might be legit, although the context is clearly related to "Ghost of Christmas Present".
 * That's the normal usage of "Christmas present", not the proposed usage.
 * "Bitch of Christmas Present" is clearly a play off of "Ghost of Christmas Present"
 * Seems legit.
 * Kaldari (talk) 01:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of legitimate hits for the plural --WikiTiki89 01:40, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, good point. Okay, I'm satisfied that the term exists, but we need a different definition - the current definition doesn't seem to leave room for a plural. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 02:30, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed def so has it become more acceptable yet? TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 04:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've changed it again to reflect the uses I can find. (I also deleted a quotation that looks like "Christmas [that is] present" to me.) Look good? —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 22:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, we still don't have any citations for the sense I originally RFVed - everything seems to support the second sense (the one I added). —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 22:25, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually I think that the one you added is what was meant by the sense you RFVed, just not worded very well. I think we could just merge them. --WikiTiki89 22:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Makes sense to me. I've merged the definitions, and I'm striking this as verified. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 03:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Translations of the RFD-failed sense

 * Chinese:
 * Mandarin: 聖誕節禮物, 圣诞节礼物
 * Danish:
 * Dutch: kerstcadeau
 * Estonian: jõulukink
 * Finnish:
 * French: cadeau de Noël,
 * German:
 * Greek: χριστουγεννιάτικο δώρο
 * Icelandic:
 * Japanese: クリスマスプレゼント


 * Jèrriais: présent d'Noué
 * Maltese: rigal tal-Milied
 * Northern Sami: juovlaskeaŋka
 * Norwegian:
 * Bokmål: ,
 * Nynorsk:, jolegåve, , jolepresang
 * Romanian: cadou de Crăciun
 * Russian: рожде́ственский пода́рок, пода́рок на Рождество́
 * Spanish: regalo de Navidad
 * Swedish:

RFD discussion: December 2013–April 2014
SOP. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:03, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete . --WikiTiki89 19:10, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * SOP. Keφr 19:33, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ...and birthday present/birthday presents? Spinning Spark  20:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete this, birthday present, and your little dog too. Ba humbugi. DCDuring TALK 21:05, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Christmas present and birthday present as SOP, but keep and your little dog too. bd2412 T 21:10, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Santa is noting down all the names that vote delete for this. You'll all be sorry next Christmas. Spinning Spark  21:55, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep it. Are you spoilsports going to leave all those translations homeless?? Donnanz (talk) 22:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the appeal, but suppose there are a few languages that have a single word for the concept of a blue umbrella, or the smell of spring, or the time half an hour after midnight - would we have entries to accommodate those translations? bd2412 T 23:37, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. DTLHS (talk) 23:38, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * There are languages that have words for all of those things, so you'd better create the entries. :] You should also create [[possess a bunchberry plant]], since there's a language which has a word for that. - -sche (discuss) 03:09, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I no longer believe in the concept of words. DTLHS (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don’t oppose converting it to a translation target. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Christmas present and birthday present per nom. - -sche (discuss) 22:04, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per Donnanz and DTLHS Purplebackpack89  (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:45, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete both Christmas present and birthday present. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 03:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know. The whole project is so rife with SOP's that these two don't make the situation any worse. I just added Finnish translation (per request) to illegal immigration and wondered, why the heck we have it. But I guess it's lesser evil to let them be, because RFD'ing them all would totally jam this page. Then I checked illegal immigrant and it has been around since 2006. If I would have to choose between keeping "Christmas present" and "birthday present" versus keeping the two immigration terms, I would certainly choose the presents. Perhaps we should have an authorized "execution squad" which would be authorized to kill SOP's without any formalities. --Hekaheka (talk) 03:15, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem with that is that there are cases where one person thinks a term is SOP, but it really isn't. No one on the authorized execution squad would be infallible in their decision. --WikiTiki89 03:18, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * illegal immigrant is gone. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know how you explain an anti-SoP entry policy to the editors of foreign-language Wiktionaries. https://no.wiktionary.org/wiki/julegave
 * I suppose if you delete every Christmas-related entry it would keep the atheists, pagans, Jews, Moslems and other non-believers, as well as the North Koreans happy. Donnanz (talk) 10:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This comment seems off-topic and inflammatory. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:33, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete as transparent, if you know what Christmas means and you know what present means, you know what this means. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:33, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Off-topic? Definitely not - look under Christmas (derived terms). Inflammatory? I guess it depends on how thin-skinned you are. My comment did not target any group in particular, and there's plenty of people who would criticise the celebration of Christmas in any form. Donnanz (talk) 13:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Implying that opposition to the inclusion of Christmas present in a dictionary is opposition to Christmas itself is about as useful as implying that opposition to red tricycle is opposition to tricycles (and also strikes me as somewhat "thin-skinned" itself, but that's beside the point). Do we have entries for graduation present, wedding present, housewarning present, Mother's Day present, Father's Day present, etc.? Is that because we have an agenda against mentioning graduations, weddings, housewarmings, Mother's Day, Father's Day, etc.? I love Christmas. I've given and received Christmas presents, participated in Christmas Eve services, put up Christmas lights and Christmas decorations, not to mention putting Christmas-tree ornaments on Christmas trees. I have fond memories of my family's Christmas traditions and the activities my mom had for us to do during Christmas Vacation. I still need to see good reasons why someone will need to look up Christmas present if they already know what Christmas and present mean. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You seem to think that people only look things up in a dictionary to find out what they mean. Which, firstly, isn't the case, and secondly does not resolve anything because ‘present’ means all kinds of things, most of which are irrelevant to the meaning of ‘Christmas present’. Ƿidsiþ 17:12, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * What’s this? The Spanish Inquisition? — Ungoliant (falai) 15:02, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, who put the cat amongst the pigeons? Donnanz (talk) 15:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, I haven't completely made up my mind on this: there have been solid, well-reasoned comments on both sides of the issue. The ones I responded to weren't among those. To first throw in a gratuitous reference to "atheists, pagans, Jews, Moslems and other non-believers, as well as the North Koreans", then to use "thin-skinned" when challenged, seemed a bit much. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:17, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If my comment caused any offence, I apologise. Donnanz (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It's not that I was particularly offended, but that I didn't like the direction things seemed to be going, and wanted to stop it from going any further in that direction. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:09, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, fair enough. To be honest, I don't know where the main objection lies - is it terms derived from present, or terms derived from Christmas? As far as present is concerned, I have no objection to birthday present or Christmas present, which are very common in usage, and this is reflected by the translation entries in both cases. But I would perhaps draw the line there. Strangely enough, there is no ""Derived terms" section under present (Etymology 2). Donnanz (talk) 17:35, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep. In the OED (first citation from Samuel Pepys! This is the sort of surprising information that good dictionaries provide). Also, remember that Scrooge is visited by the Ghost of Christmas Present: there the collocation is sum of parts, but in normal use it's a set phrase which calls on a specific noun use of present:. Ƿidsiþ 15:42, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I did not realize we had a second sense of "current Christmas". If that sense is attestable then the entry should be kept, because it is not SOP, as it is not the usual word order for "present Christmas" and stems from its usage in A Christmas Carol. But delete birthday present. --WikiTiki89 19:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Clarification of my vote: Keep the Dickens-derived sense. Delete gift given on Christmas sense. --WikiTiki89 19:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Just added it and I believe it's attestable, A Christmas Carol's legacy is far-reaching. It should also be kept' on the grounds that it's not obvious what sense of present is being referred to in the set phrase Christmas present, whether the literal SOP one or the sense I just added. I have not found a reason not to delete birthday present however, but I'll continue looking for one. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 19:59, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It all goes to show how fickle Wiktionary policy is regarding SoP entries. Donnanz (talk) 20:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that's probably more a problem with notions of language than a problem with Wiktionary itself IMO. Wiktionary's mission is to include "all words in all languages", and tries to apply an objective inclusion criteria to inherently subjective interpretations of "words" and "languages", which are constantly changing and evolving. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 20:09, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Further thoughts: Christmas present in this sense uses present as a postpositive adjective, and may be uncountable. Anyway, "Christmas presents" would be the wrong plural. "Christmas present and Christmases past" is quite feasible though. Donnanz (talk) 21:27, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Further thoughts on this: not all presents given at Christmas are Christmas presents, and not all Christmas presents are given at Christmas. I received some Christmas presents this year in August (from relatives that I rarely see): the point is that I keep them and open them on Christmas Day. Similarly, if I give a friend 20 quid on the 19th December, I might say ‘Consider this a present’ but it would not be a Christmas present: – unless I wrapped it up in a box and he put it under his tree until the 25th. There are all kinds of cultural and traditional assumptions involved in this term that are not obvious from Christmas: + present:. Ƿidsiþ 07:38, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not a linguistic phenomenon. They are presents given for Christmas, whether it is on Christmas or in August. --WikiTiki89 20:18, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep. I am not really sure, but I go with Widsith, OED and Collins; see also . --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep just like we have kept Christmas card. It looks like a sum of parts because we know what it is, but it is a culturally fixed phrase and you can say [//www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22Christmas+presents+on+Christmas%22 Christmas presents on Christmas] and [//www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22Christmas+presents+for+Christmas%22 Christmas presents for Christmas]. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Interesting that Japanese has borrowed the term in full:, just like and many other compound English terms and words, which may or may not be considered SoP. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Alright, given all the discussion and development that has occurred here, with my involvement in creating a new home and sense for the entry, I haven't found any compelling reason to keep the first noun sense. So yeah, delete. (And I guess we will yet again consider RFDing yet another entry クリスマスプレゼント Atitarev, considering the latter is under discussion as we speak.) TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 05:03, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Because the "gift" sense was the only one present when this entry was RFDed, and the "current Christmas" sense was added after many users voted, I think any deletion of the "current Christmas" sense requires a new, separate RFD. This RFD (on the "gift" sense) shows, by my reading, a 2-to-1 majority for deletion. - -sche (discuss) 22:36, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

birthday present
Since many have already expressed their opinion that this should also be deleted (and I agree), it should also be explicitly RFDed. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:01, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope, keep it. I have no objection whatsoever to this entry. Donnanz (talk) 18:11, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep of course. Ƿidsiþ 20:26, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete, but I suspect that there may be a second sense of just "wrapped presents", which should be kept if attestable (for example, "The store was decorated with stacks of birthday presents."). --WikiTiki89 20:33, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * (In case it wasn't clear from the previous section) Keep Purplebackpack89  (Notes Taken) (Locker) 21:48, 29 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Note to whoever closes this, my vote on this entry (like some other users' votes on it) is in the previous section. - -sche (discuss) 20:32, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Same (which was delete). Mglovesfun (talk) 21:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Same here (also delete). bd2412 T 19:07, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ditto. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 19:53, 30 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Once again, don't forget the translations which several users have taken the effort to enter (not me - yet). Donnanz (talk) 14:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Translations are really not a good reason to keep an SOP term. --WikiTiki89 16:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree.  Purplebackpack89  (Notes Taken) (Locker) 21:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Take for example "I eat" or "I am eating". As far as I know, a large percentage of all languages that exist can say that in one word: Arabic, Spanish , Polish , etc. That does not mean that we need to include I eat and I am eating to host those translations. --WikiTiki89 23:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary's mission is to include "all words in all languages". I want to see your definition of what "word"/"term"/"lemma" you consider to be appropriate or legitimate in a dictionary. Does man wearing a blue hat (Equinox) constitute a legitimate "word"? Or I am not a potato. But I'll give a brief explanation of why I don't consider myself a potato? TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 23:58, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Wikitiki89, while we might not have I am eating, it would probably behoove us to have an explanation of the progressive tense, which exists in English but not in romance languages. However, in general, I believe that we are being too hasty in deleting entries of more than one word.  This is an example of one that shouldn't be deleted.  television show is another.  Our job is to have a dictionary that can explain any definition anybody anywhere could possibly want  Purplebackpack89  <font color="FFAB00">(Notes Taken) <font color="FFAB00">(Locker) 00:23, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The progressive tense is irrelevant to the point I was making. I was saying that we don't need to include those terms just because a single-word translation exists in a multitude of languages. As for explaining definitions, birthday and present explain perfectly well what a birthday present is. --WikiTiki89 00:29, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Having researched the term, I cannot find any conclusive evidence that this is not sum of parts. Therefore, delete TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 21:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a pretty accurate observation, it's a sum of parts, three to be precise: birth + day + present. By some quirk of fate birth + day were combined in this sense, so that leaves us dealing with birthday + present. The page for present redirects users to gift for translations, but how often is it referred to as a birthday gift? Yes, there's an entry for that too, so you can have even more fun! Personally, I prefer the term birthday present; it's what I'm used to. Donnanz (talk) 23:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * in en-US or en-GB? I believe the term present by itself is used more widely than gift anyway, so the comparison between "birthday present" and "birthday gift" would be redundant. If you want we can nominate "birthday gift" as well. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 23:52, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I use British English. Donnanz (talk) 00:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * There are many set terms whose meanings are perfectly transparent, it doesn't mean they should be deleted. I don't see how this is any different from, say, tennis ball:. Ƿidsiþ 11:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. Mglovesfun (talk) 21:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I suppose it may be cultural and not completely obvious that the present is given to the person celebrating their birthday, not the other way around. Still, keeping on those grounds would allow for pretty much every type of present, for which that's almost universally the case. Weak delete this and gift, though I would consider allowing as a translation target despite the slippery slope arguments above. DAVilla 12:08, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. Equinox ◑ 18:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep. I am not really sure, but I go with Collins; see also . --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep just like we have kept birthday card. It looks like a sum of parts because we know what it is, but it is a culturally fixed phrase and you can say [//www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22birthday+presents+on+your+birthday%22 birthday presents on your birthday]. — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Deleted. Commenters above were 2-to-1 in favour of deletion. - -sche (discuss) 22:36, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

birthday gift
Same as above. --WikiTiki89 00:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete as above. <i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i> T 00:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete for the same reasons as Christmas present. - -sche (discuss) 01:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete as above. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 02:39, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. — Ungoliant (falai) 06:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I knew this would happen. Both should be kept for a variety of reasons. They are synonyms for a start, and not everyone may be aware of that, especially foreign users who may not have the time nor inclination to work it all out if both entries are deleted. Donnanz (talk) 10:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * They are synonyms because present and gift are synonyms, making them all the more SoPpy. --WikiTiki89 18:36, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete as I foretold. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 11:46, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep. Ƿidsiþ 15:47, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep for reasons I outlined in Christmas present and birthday present above Purplebackpack89  <font color="FFAB00">(Notes Taken) <font color="FFAB00">(Locker) 20:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I would like to make one qualification to my above !votes. If Christmas present is kept, then birthday present should also be kept as an example of the same formation, and vice versa; if birthday present is kept, then birthday gift should be kept as a synonym. Therefore, if there are any of these does not end end up having a consensus to delete, then I would prefer to see all of them kept, for consistency. <i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i> T 21:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Even if Christmas present is kept just for its other sense? --WikiTiki89 01:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that it is highly unlikely that the determination as to Christmas present will hinge on the second sense introduced. <i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i> T 19:19, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh really? --WikiTiki89 19:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Given that you are the only editor who would keep one and delete the other, yes, really. <i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i> T 21:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * 1. Considering how close the vote is currently, my vote could be the deciding one. 2. I think most people who voted to delete the original RFD'd sense would support keeping the Dickens-derived sense. --WikiTiki89 21:33, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't really have "deciding votes"; the closing administrator will make a determination based on policy and consensus. <i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i> T 22:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * And also based on the votes. --WikiTiki89 22:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you have that impression, but we have "RfD", not "VfD" here. <i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i> T 13:33, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: both of these terms seems to pass the "tennis player" test at WT:IDIOM. Ƿidsiþ 09:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Please explain, because I don't see how they could pass. Frankly, I don't see how tennis player passes either. --WikiTiki89 19:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Because there's no other word - tenniser doesn't exist, though it's tennisser in Dutch. Donnanz (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no other word for the cat stuck in the tree, that doesn't mean we should include it. --WikiTiki89 20:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * But no one thinks we should. Unlike this. Ƿidsiþ 08:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The entry for tennis player was kept because we decided to keep similar entries, mostly on the grounds that they were professional titles. You wouldn't call anyone who plays tennis a tennis player. Your argument for keeping it doesn't explain why we have soccer player despite footballer. DAVilla 12:29, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That decision was a bad one. The frequency of phrases like "bad tennis player", "poor tennis player" shows that it is often used for non-professionals. Equinox ◑ 20:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Even tennis player doesn't pass the tennis player test. The discussion just got botched. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete (ergo same as my vote above). Mglovesfun (talk) 19:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. Equinox ◑ 18:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. No unique meaning separate from the combined meanings of the two terms. Kaldari (talk) 22:56, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Deleted. WikiTiki89, Mr. Granger, Ungoliant, TeleComNasSprVen, Mglovesfun, Equinox, Kaldari and I favoured deletion; Donnanz, Ƿidsiþ and Purplebackpack89 favoured retention. My decision to resolve this RFD before resolving the other two — because a quick glance suggested the consensus on this term was clearer than the consensus on the other terms — made it hard to apply BD2412's conditional vote, but there is an approximately 2-to-1 majority favouring deletion regardless of which way BD2412's vote is counted. - -sche (discuss) 21:55, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * In retrospect, I'm fine with that too. I can see why we would at least have an &lit sense for the synonym at "Christmas present" without having an entry for "Christmas gift". <i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i> T 18:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

These are now all dealt with (either deleted or the contested senses converted to &lit) and may be archived. Cheers! <i style="background:lightgreen">bd2412</i> T 15:25, 21 April 2014 (UTC)