Talk:Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän

RFV discussion: September 2017–May 2018
I am not convinced.__Gamren (talk) 14:22, 16 September 2017 (UTC) People both at wikipedia and wiktionary probably often do not differ properly or check the official rules properly... As for the official rules of 2017: They sometimes mention proper nouns, while they also mention that proper nouns might be exceptions of the rules. E.g. § 59: "Eigennamen schreibt man groß." This would probably prescribe "Ebay" and proscribe eBay, ebay, e-Bay, e-bay (Duden: "eBay®, E-Bay"). However because of "0 Vorbemerkungen" (3.2) {"Für Eigennamen (Vornamen, Familiennamen, geografische Eigennamen und dergleichen) gelten im Allgemeinen amtliche Schreibungen. Diese entsprechen nicht immer den folgenden Regeln."} and other things {like official names of cities being official through something else, and as company and product names could be official through an official registration, maybe supported by laws like § 5 MarkenG (of FGR, who knows about Austria, Swiss, and all the other countries)}, "eBay" could be correct nontheless. As for Duden, Duden is not the official rules and Duden-Monopol or Duden-Privileg doesn't exist anymore (it ended 1996). So Duden online's "eBay®, E-Bay" is not the official rules and rather Duden's opinion. Unless someone finds better sources, like maybe official registers of officially registered names, it should all be a matter of opinion. Some might argue that "Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaft" is an unaffected proper noun, and some might argue that "Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaft" is affected by the reform(s), maybe because it's a converted or unreal proper noun (like God coming from god but unlike Peter not coming from *peter) or for whatever reason. People could even argue that "Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaft" is affected by the reform(s) while the proper company name "Erste Donau-Dampfschiffahrtsgesellschaft" (or "Erste Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaft" or "Erste Donau-Dampfschiffahrts-Gesellschaft") according to 20th/21st century sources is unaffected by the reform(s). As for the contradiction mentioned above ("contradicting information on correct spelling"), it could be a result of a different interpretation or view, which could be POV. It could also be a matter of some kind of incorrectness or prescriptivism, especially in case of wiktionary... The best could be to put a usage note in both entries explaining the situation: Official 1996 reform rules, now as of 2017, prescribing the common noun spelling "Schifffahrt" and proscribing "Schiffahrt", but only partially covering proper nouns, hence leaving it open which spelling is official. Official is not the same as standard, but it too should be open whether or not any of the spellings is standard or not. — ( Just BTW as it might be unclear for some: One has to differ between "standard" (cp. Appendix:Glossary: "Not conforming to the language as accepted by the majority of its speakers."), and "official" or "ministerial" (in German: amtlich). While the official rules from ca. 1900-1996 where pretty much standard, that's not true for the 1996 rules, especially for the real 1996 rules of 1996 (with spellings like "Eis laufen", which now as of 2017 is "eislaufen"). If the rules of 1996 would have been accepted by the people or "the majority of its speakers" and would have been standard, there wouldn't be so much criticism against it and no need for the rereforms of 2004 and 2006. But there was much criticism and there were the rereforms. And even nowadays where criticisms probably still exists (RP-Online: Mehrheit lehnt die Rechtschreibreform weiter ab (1. August 2011), LVZ: Umfrage: Mehrheit lehnt Rechtschreibreform noch immer ab (31.07.2011)) but isn't so loud or strong anymore, not all official rules and spellings are probably standard or not all unofficial spellings are probably nonstandard. An example which could show that there is a difference between standard and official could be the nowadays unofficial spelling "belemmert": When the FAZ changed to the spelling "dass" instead of "daß" around 2006/2007, it stated that "belemmert" and some other unofficial spellings stay, cp. FAZ: In eigener Sache: F.A.Z. paßt Rechtschreibung an (02.12.2006). Another example could be "Majonäse" which is unofficial and hence proscribed since 2017, but probably is still in use and might be so in the years to come. Further examples could exist with f and ph spellings. For example according to Duden online as of 2017 it's only "Foto" (not "Photo"), only "Fotografie" or "Photographie" (and of course not "Fotographie" or "Photografie") and only "Alphabet" (not "Alfabet"). Note however that that might be Duden's opinion or interpretation of the official rules and not what the official rules state. Some people might ignore such prescriptivism and proscriptivism, or might interprete the official rules differently, and might write it "Photo" (just like "Photographie", "Delphin" and some other terms) or "Alfabet" (just like "Fotografie", "Delfin", and some other terms) anyway. Depending on the term, some unofficial or proscribed spellings could be standard too, especially as the majority of speakers might not know which forms are presribed or proscribed and which arent. ("Alfabet" however probably is nonstandard.) ) -84.161.59.140 17:23, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * This rings a bell, as if we had already discussed this topic as an rfv or rfd issue. See also and Wikipedia article on  which give contradicting information on correct spelling. --Hekaheka (talk) 16:23, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * We did discuss it; see Talk:Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän., you have to say something more than "I am not convinced" when you do something as bizarre as RFVing a term that you have just cited. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 17:56, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * German Wikipedia says: "Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän bezeichnet als Eigennamenkompositum (und damit unberührt von der Rechtschreibreform)" (Donau...kapitän is considered a proper noun compound (and is threfore exempt from the spelling reform)). This would make "Donau...fff...kapitän" hypercorrect. Should we mark it as misspelling of "Donau...ff..kapitän" and rewrite the latter definition? --Hekaheka (talk) 20:10, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * As for this RFV, isn't it cited by the cites in Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän and hence RFV passed? Wouldn't everything else be a matter of WT:RFC? As for a probable RFC:
 * It seems cited to me (added another one). It was apparently coined in 1936 by Erich Meder ("Kein Lied war je so schön / Als das vom Donaudampfschif(f)fahrtsgesellschaftskapitän."), more likely under the older spelling.
 * I think it is not a good idea to make this into a misspelling entry; whether it is hypercorrect or not seems arguable. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  12:37, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

RFV passed. Four cites. Korn &#91;kʰũːɘ̃n&#93; (talk) 08:53, 6 May 2018 (UTC)