Talk:Jew by choice

Need citation
Need citation for this. 24.29.228.33 06:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Jew by choice
Someone who is a Jew by his own choice. SOP. &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 14:49, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not convinced that this is a keeper, but I would note that the definition specifies a convert to Judaism, even though a person who is born Jewish and is free to leave the religion, but chooses not to, could also be described by this term. I would RfV first to see if it really is exclusively applied to converts. bd2412 T 14:55, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Good point. In my own experience it's applied exclusively to converts, but that's not worth much: cites will tell. Perhaps this is a keeper as defined and should be moved to RFV. &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 18:54, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete, but consider creating by choice Pur ple back pack 89  15:25, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. It is used exclusively for converts, and it is not quite SOP, because conversion is non-trivial.  You can choose to be Jewish, say, but if you have not completed the conversion, you are not Jewish. Choor monster (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That seems to be a practical rather than a lexical consideration. A person who becomes an attorney and practices law could be called an attorney by choice, although if the same person does not complete law school, then they can't be an attorney even if they choose to be. There are two issue with this phrase - can we demonstrate that it is only used for those who have converted to Judaism (as opposed to those born Jewish who choose to adhere to the religion), and is it only applied in this sense to Jewish people (as opposed to converts to other religions, or other areas of life). bd2412 T 18:13, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Based on Google Books, this term does also, but not always, include people who were born unobservant Jews and who have become religious. Interestingly, though, many of the results spell this term as Jew-by-choice or even Jew-by-Choice (and the adjectival forms Jewish by Choice, Jewish-by-choice, and Jewish-by-Choice all exist). This contrasts with Muslim by choice, for which I cannot find any uses with hyphens, but a few instances of Muslim by Choice. But other than orthographic differences, the usage and semantics seem to be the same between "Jew(ish) by choice", "Muslim by choice", and "Christian/Catholic/etc by choice". --WikiTiki89 19:00, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a self-contradiction, surely? If you can choose to be X, but are not yet X, then you are not yet an X-by-choice either. (Compare choosing to be(come) married.) Equinox ◑ 21:00, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:48, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. SOPSonofcawdrey (talk) 08:55, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. As Equinox says, if you choose to marry someone or to become Jewish, but you have not yet married them or become Jewish (by whatever criteria you are using to define "Jew"), then you're not yet "married by choice" or a "Jew by choice", you're just engaged. And based on Wikitiki89's comments, the term is SOP. - -sche (discuss) 06:53, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. Seems to be widespread, although the meaning can vary, since the question of "who is a Jew?" is much more complex than "who is a Christian?" or "who is a Muslim?" or other similar questions, due to opposing viewpoints about culture, ethnicity, and religion. Other similar phrases don't seem to be as widespread, probably for the same reason.  In other words, similar questions tend to be very much sum-of-parts, while "Jew by choice" (or "Jewish by choice") isn't at all intuitive.  For most people, anyone who practices Christianity is a Christian; anyone who practices Islam is a Muslim; anyone who was born or naturalized an American citizen is an American.  But there's widespread disagreement over whether Jewishness is defined by religion or ethnicity (most Jews would say either or both, but many non-Jews would say religion alone).  There's disagreement over whether converts are Jews, or whether the non-religious children of Jewish parents are Jewish, or those who profess a religion other than Judaism, but consider themselves ethnically Jewish.  Of course that's all beyond the scope of Wiktionary, but it illustrates why the phrase "Jew by choice" has a certain currency not shared with most similar phrases.  P Aculeius (talk) 16:44, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. Creating by choice would be a better option. bd2412 T 14:52, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

RFD-failed. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 05:04, 20 November 2015 (UTC)