Talk:Native Californian

Native Californian
Seems strictly SoP. DCDuring TALK 11:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. This isn't SoP, it's just incorrectly defined.  It's a state-level equivalent of Native American.  It refers not to those born in California, but to the indigenous people present in the region of the state before the arrival of Europeans, and to the descendants of those people. --EncycloPetey 13:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You want to keep an incorrect sense on the grounds that there might be a real sense? I challenge the entry as it is. I've never heard of the usage you suggest. It is certainly plausible, but needs to be cited. If it is actually used as you say, we will have to keep the SoP meaning to clarify the distinction in use. I'd like see in what context it is used. DCDuring TALK 14:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I agree (or disagree, depending on how you look at it) with both of you. I would say that anyone trying to use the term "Native Californian" in the why it's defined would probably be considered wrong, so SoP isn't the issue ("native Californian" seems better), and the term is commonly used to refer to indigenous Californians. At the same time, I find it confusing, or even annoying, when people say "keep" for a bad sense, just because another attestable sense for that word exists. You don't really mean that you want to keep it, you mean "delete-it-but-oh-by-the-way-it-should-be-replace-by-this-meaning." In any case, I have deleted that sense, but oh by the way, I replaced it with EP's, and cites for it. :-) Dmcdevit·t 20:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is, a lot of admins don't give helpful deletion summaries, so a later reader (potential contributor) coming across a deleted entry is likely to think that we've rejected the sense they're thinking of. If there's not consensus to keep any of the currently defined sense, but there is consensus that the term has a real sense that warrants inclusion but that no one has added (for whatever reason), then I'd either (1) change the def to a or (2) delete the entry with a deletion summary that makes clear the need for a better entry. But either way, thanks for side-stepping that by adding the right sense. :-) —Ruakh TALK 00:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Or maybe not. Someone born in California is a native Californian, but not Native Californian, I suppose. Edited the article using entry on "Native American" as a model. Hekaheka 20:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Grr, I just edit-conflicted you on the article, and the again here. I just put my version of the article in instead of yours; no hard feelings I hope. ;-) Our definitions were essentially the same, I just added citations for the senses. Dmcdevit·t 20:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * SoP sense has been deleted. Entry is now beautiful. It never occurred to me that this is what the phrase meant. In the northeastern US the state names aren't used that way. "Native New Yorker" just doesn't seem likely to be what a Native American from the Six Nations (Iroquois) would call themselves.
 * Does "Native Californian" merit a usage note or something to distinguish it from "native Californian"? DCDuring TALK 01:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * A usage note does seem in order for this entry. I expect that one reason that Native Californian is used, but that the construction is not used for other US states, is that (1) California is highly isolated geographically from surrounding, so indigenous peoples seldom migrated across what later became state borders, (2) there is a highly charged political issue concerning recognition of tribes and their lands in this state, (3) Native Arizonan, Native Oreganian, et.c just aren't as euphonious. --EncycloPetey 21:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This entry is now lacking and misleading. The SoP sense filled the gap between the common meaning of the term and the relatively rare meaning (that we now currently have a definition for.)  If the intent was to describe it in a usage note, that never happened.  While Hekahaka's observation might be more correct than the common use, most bumper stickers will have the "N" capitalized.  Even if pedantically it should be a small "N", it is instead capitalized, normally.  Rejecting how the term is commonly used, for the sake of political correctness, seems directly opposite to Wiktionary's purpose.  Furthermore, I see only two citations for each of the rare forms, not the requisite three.  --Connel MacKenzie 19:24, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If it makes you feel better, you seem to be wrong: the first few pages of and  are almost entirely in the sense we define. (Incidentally, this continues to be true if we ignore the uppercase-N hits.) —Ruakh TALK 00:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete, not useful in any way. Mglovesfun 14:28, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep, certainly no less useful than Native American. -- Visviva 14:54, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Striking. As noted above, the offending sense has been removed. Connel's objection is noted. —Ruakh TALK 19:51, 8 March 2009 (UTC) }