Talk:Peaky Blinders

Peaky Blinders
The name of a gang. Almostonurmind (talk) 20:42, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It may be possible to attest as the term for a member of the gang, which has a stronger case for inclusion (being a noun). Theknightwho (talk) 20:48, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * There is already an entry, though at the common noun . - TheDaveRoss  21:37, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I was on my phone and hadn't checked. Fair enough. Theknightwho (talk) 14:30, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete, clearly encyclopedic and not dictionary material. We also shouldn't have entries for the Essex Football Club or the New York City Freemasons. - TheDaveRoss  21:39, 9 September 2022 (UTC)


 * But we often do, to the extent that it's even our habit and custom, e.g. Lioness (and any number of soccer/football and baseball teams). If you are convinced about this, then we need to talk policy and voting. Equinox ◑ 04:38, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It does seem we handle players of sports teams differently than the names of sports teams (we don't, to your example, have Lionesses [as a football team] or English Women's National Football Team). It is truly a confused mess. - TheDaveRoss  12:25, 12 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Abstain? What if the gang had a single-word name? I know for a fact we've got at least one such term but I can't remember it (it's from 17th-18th century; it was something like "tilters" or "turners" because they allegedly used to throw people upside-down; anyone remember?)... Or more recently, what about Crip, a member of an American gang? I'm on the fence because, on the one hand, it "feels like" a brand name or a company name, how I'd want to delete Pokémon shit, but on the other hand it's sort of a word that isn't that. Hmmmm.... Equinox ◑ 04:36, 10 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Yiddisher, Hawcubite, Mohawk, or something older? We do also have Guelph and Ghibelline for historical factions. And Blood and Crip for modern gangs, Deadhead, Modie, Swiftie and Wholigan for fans of particular modern musical artists/groups, Bantam and Viking for sports team members, Methodist and Free Quaker for members of religious groups, Edinbronian/Edinbourgeois/Edinburger etc for people from places... if the singular Peaky Blinder is attested, it might fit our usual practice better to make the singular the lemma (for a member of the gang) and reduce this to a plural-of, but (as you said to Dave) for better or worse it does seem like we typically include this kind of thing... - -sche (discuss) 07:25, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 * So, move the lemma to the singular Peaky Blinder, decide which one of Peaky Blinder vs peaky blinder to make an altcaps of the other, and reduce Peaky Blinders to being a plural-of... like we do for Crip (defined) vs Crips (just "plural of..."), Blood vs Bloods, Lioness vs Lionesses, Bantam vs Bantams, Viking vs Vikings. (Unless we want to start a more general discussing about deleting all of these.) - -sche (discuss) 17:15, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm on board with this. Theknightwho (talk) 21:36, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
 * What is the rationale which makes Lioness different from Lionesses? Crip from Crips? I agree that is how we currently operate, I just can't see why that is the case. - TheDaveRoss  12:28, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I would guess it's because a sense for the gang at Crips would be redundant to the plural of "Crip" sense inasmuch as any English plural can be used to refer to a collective, can't it? think  are dangerous and  advise not being exposed to them, but we probably don't want to add those senses to those entries because they're just restating the definition of the singular in a plural/collective way, right? (Whether we should have the singulars / any entry at all in the case of specific groups like Peaky Blinder(s), IDK, but...we do, so if we wanna stop, we should probably discuss it in general and not one entry at a time.) - -sche (discuss) 17:01, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmmm - the more I think about it, the less convinced I am that we can just treat it as a simple plural, actually. With most nouns, you can't use the definite article + the plural to refer to all of them collectively, whereas you can with these: compare "the chairs" or "the people", which don't mean "all chairs" or "all people". However, "the Bloods" or "the Vikings" do have a collective meaning, because the plural is itself a proper noun. We take this to silly extremes with entries like (which is typical of entries for peoples), which we treat as an ordinary noun that is plural only, capitalised and collective - and it also optionally takes the definite article (when referring to the people, not the language). It is completely indistinguishable from a proper noun. I assume the capitalisation is a tacit acknowledgement of that, in fact. Theknightwho (talk) 13:50, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yoruba is part of our longstanding difficulty with defining ethnonational groups, yes... a lot of entries have been entered as plural-only with no indication that they're also singulars (I added a cite where someone is "a Yoruba")... whether we should define them as both singulars and plural/collective (proper?) nouns, I don't know: it's been discussed before, and e.g. Abenaki currently does have both a proper noun for the nation and a section for the count noun; prior discussions are this old, short 2012 one, WT:Beer parlour/2017/June, and WT:Beer parlour/2021/March. Re your point about the Bloods, I'm also unsure. On one hand, is that attaching too much importance to one situation (definite article + plural) where they sometimes(!) differ despite otherwise not differing? In "Bloods hate Crips", Bloods is collective without the, and "chairs have legs" is equally collective (and not always accurate, but that's beside the point); "three Bloods shot a man; the Bloods were later arrested" is a noncollective plural, as is "three chairs broke, the chairs were later repaired"; and "as the rivalry escalated, Bloods were shot" and "as the brawl intensified, chairs were broken" is using those words as noncollective plurals without the... so it's in only one of four situations, "use with the to mean the collective", that they'd sometimes differ, and even then, you could say e.g. "On Coruscant, conditions became so dire that the coruscantium miners rebelled" using "the coruscantium miners" (or e.g. "the technicians") as a collective plural. On the other hand, Bloods and Vikings and Abenaki and Yoruba do feel like they also exist as group names, and like the collectives may have come first and the singulars may be derivatives / back-formations... hmm... - -sche (discuss) 23:30, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I do agree with you, but I think the situation where they differ plus the capitalisation (which is another difference) does seem to be relevant, because it’s an acknowledgment that the collective term is a name (which surely must make it a proper noun). It’s a bit blurry with, say,, but then that’s probably why exists, which suggests that there is a correlation between a shift towards being a common noun and the loss of capitalisation (in those situations, anyway). I think you’re probably also right about the collective names (at least often) coming first. Theknightwho (talk) 10:23, 14 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Abstain : Although multi-word proper names with no figurative use and no derived terms are less part of the core of inclusion of proper names, multi-word nicknames Orange Man, God Emperor, Pharma Bro, Korea Fish, Vegetable English, and Elongated Muskrat are included, and if we accept these, I don't see what would exclude Peaky Blinders as the name of a gang. And if we include Peaky Blinders as a plural, it would not even be a proper name any longer. I have decided to abstain since I am no longer convinced we need to include multi-word proper names with no lexicographical saving graces such as figurative uses or derived includable terms. About the pluralization: I am not sure we want to redefine Beatles as the plural of Beatle; I think we don't. It seems Peaky Blinders and Peaky Blinder should better be treated similar to Beatles and Beatle. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep as nominated by Wonderfool (Almostonurmind), a banned user tolerated not because they are good but to avoid harm to new editor accounts resulting from search for new Wonderfool accounts. Let someone who is not a little devil renominate this if wished. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:14, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep or redirect to peaky blinder (like we do for Crips). I don't mind which but clearly we shouldn't delete the entry entirely. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 14:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep since it is very opaque and has a nontrivial etymology. &mdash; excarnateSojourner (talk &middot; contrib) 21:14, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * So are the names of most specific entities and brand names that we have excluded. It's best to leave the explanation to the Wikipedia article. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Kept Jewle V (talk) 12:07, 10 September 2023 (UTC)