Talk:Wirren

RFV discussion: May–October 2015
There it is "Wirren n., pl. Wirren".

In contemporary German that word should be a plurale tantum (e.g. at duden.de and DWDS) and traditionally it should be "die Wirre, pl. die Wirren" (e.g. in DWB, and in [books.google.de/books?id=N99nAAAAMAAJ&q="die+Wirre"&dq="die+Wirre"] it is: "Daß ein so unrihiger Kopf, der von allen Nöten und Doktrinen der Zeit in die Wirre getrieben wird, der das Bedrüfnis fühlt, sich um alle Bedürfnisse der Menschheit zu bekümmern, und gern die Nase in alle Töpfe steckt, worin der liebe Gott die Zukunft kocht:").

PS: Duden is kind of contradicting (once again): [www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Wirre] & [www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Wirren]

-91.63.228.120 22:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC), PS: 22:57, 22 May 2015 (UTC) Or is it just "Substantivisations [...] usually don't have plurals"? But then please give an undoubtful example or a reference for that, as it's usually "don't have" without exceptions (e.g. at [de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularetantum#Beispiele], see "substantivierte Verbinfinitive", and [de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantivierung#Substantivierung_von_Verben]). -91.63.228.120 00:56-01:18, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The current entry is valid as a nominalisation of the verb, which is how I would use it myself as well. It's also reasonable to assume that Wirren (pl.) would come from die Wirre (attestable, but not abundantly used). We mustn't treat it as a plurale tantum since both singulars will be attestable and the plural does come from either of them. Since German plurals don't have a gender, it might be a bit more difficult to prove that it's from one or the other, although the female noun probably makes more sense. So if you feel so inclined, make an entry for Wirre and leave this one untouched. _Korn (talk) 00:00, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Substantivisations like "das Gehen", "das Wirren" don't have plurals, so "die Wirren" can't be a plural of "das Wirren".
 * Grammatically, nominalisations are simply weak nouns and can form a plural like any other. They're really more restricted by their lexical nature which renders their plurals nonsensical and hence unused. But exceptions happen, like Essen and Trinken. x-tantums aren't cast in stone. The singular Leut is anything but unheard of, after all. _Korn (talk) 09:45, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm... duden.de has Essen with a plural, but Trinken only in singular, but well, duden is kind of unreliable anyway.
 * I'd guess, "something else" does happen with those substantivated infinitives, like: At first Essen denotes an activity which doesn't have a plural (~ eating, without plural), and then it's also used to refer to the meal itself which can have a plural (~ meal, with plural). So, there should have been such a transformation of "Wirren" too...
 * Other question: What's with the etymology? Here we were saying it's a substantivisation/nominalisation of the verb wirren, while the entry says it's coming from the adjective wirr. Well, wirr ~> das/die Wirre, pl. die Wirren should also be possible.
 * -91.63.228.120 15:22, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The nominalisations have to develop a countable sense to develop plurals, yes. I think the original author had some kind of mix-up of words, although the verb might come from the adjective, but I don't know about this case. I'm also rather convinced that the term Wirren for turmoils comes from 'die Wirre', we just can't prove it. _Korn (talk) 15:47, 23 May 2015 (UTC)


 * On Google Books, I can find Wirre as a feminine singular with about the meaning the Duden ascribes to it, and I can find Wirren as a plural with about the same meaning . The modern Duden and Weigand's 19th century Deutsches Wörterbuch both say the plural of Wirre is Wirren (Weigand says "die Wirre, Pl. -n"). Heyse's Handwörterbuch der deutschen Sprache says "die Wirre, nur in der M. Wirren gebr." = "die Wirre, only common in the plural Wirren". So, the part of the entry which gives die Wirren as the plural of die Wirre is OK. Das Wirren as a singular nominalization of wirren is also OK . The problem seems to be that das Wirren has been given a plural and two senses, which actually belong to the homograph Wirren from Wirre. I think I've fixed the entry. - -sche (discuss) 03:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)