Talk:ad infinitum

ad infinitum
Defined as ad infinitum.

See ad + infinitum. DCDuring TALK 14:30, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course it is defined through English - this is an English dictionary. --Hekaheka (talk) 16:41, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, what exactly is the problem here? Mglovesfun (talk) 17:50, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It is SoP in Latin, but not in English, which borrowed it from Latin. So the Latin phrase should be deleted. 17:55, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It might be SoP in Latin, but if so what do the parts mean? Is it used in Latin, or coined outside of Latin a bit like en suite in English where it's coined in English based on two French words. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Regardless, if it is SOP in Latin, the Latin entry should be deleted. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 18:13, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes but like I said... if. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is any doubt that it is SoP in Latin. It may be a set phrase, but not an idiomatic phrase. 19:40, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep and send to RFV. I can't articulate why exactly, although I suspect that it wouldn't matter, because I think it would be damn hard to cite anyway. --Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 19:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What's the point of switching venues? If someone can show it to be a set phrase, they can do so while it resides here. I have no doubt that the phrase would be attestable with some kind of meaning. I just expect the meaning to be directly construable from the basic meanings of the components. That's what RfD is supposed to be for. If the problem is that not enough people with knowledge are around, then we shouldn't be closing out RfDs, we should be waiting for knowledgeable folks to return, new knowledgeable folks to arrive, or for regulars to get more knowledgeable. DCDuring TALK 22:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You're either missing or ignoring the point; what are the senses of ad and infinitum that mean this would be sum of parts? Mglovesfun (talk) 21:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, only has one sense and either of the two senses of  would work. It's the same as English  + infinity:, (which is not too common, but since it is SOP, people understand it). --WikiTiki89 (talk) 22:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point, in English you can't say "I did the washing up to infinity". Mglovesfun (talk) 20:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Latin as SOP. If we want to make exceptions for these awkward situations, we would have to accept English sum-of-parts phrases that are set phrases in other languages. DAVilla 00:34, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyone who speaks Latin think this is SoP, or do only people who don't speak Latin think this is SoP? Mglovesfun (talk) 18:00, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. People who advocate the deletion don't boast great skills in Latin. We all know the components but who can prove that it's not idiomatic? Even if it's a very common set phrase in Latin, it has given rise to expressions in other languages, so the entry should be kept and improved by knowledgeable people. In my scarce studies of Latin back in Russia, it's one of the first phrases I learned and it was popular among my classmates (Russian hasn't copied it from Latin, although dictionaries may now include "ад инфинитум", we just use бесконечности (do beskonéčnosti - "to/till infinity"). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:22, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We could bring it to RfV, but means  . I can't imagine a native writer or speaker of Latin using it to mean ad infinitum, as opposed to a SoP meaning in Latin (including " infinitum" to cover my bet). --129.125.102.126 00:43, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I put a search into Diogenes (which contains all the Latin up to the sixth century) and it gave me the following:


 * Cicero. De Natura Deorum, 1.2.14: "...et ad infinitum tempus regantur atque moveantur" (shall be ruled and moved til infinite time) An adjective, hanging off "tempus" (time), but with the English sense
 * Pliny Naturalis Historia, 13.62.7: "in eo nucleus dulcis, dum recens est; siccatus durescit ad infinitum, ut mandi non possit" (in it the kernal is sweet, while it is fresh; having dried it hardens to infinity, so that it cannot be chewed). Basically means very - not the same as the English sense
 * Ibid., 17.44.2: "si inter fontes reperta est, ad infinitum fertilis, verum aspera tractatu; si nimia iniecta est, exurit solum." (if it is found among springs, [it is] fertile to infinity, even with rough handling; if too much is applied, it burns up only?" '''Could be temporal, but I suspect it is the same sense of "extremely" as above)
 * Ibid 20.227.5: "ut semen unicaulis adspersum curationi feminarum aviditates augere  infinitum" (so that the seed of the single-stalked [cabbage] sprinkled as medicine increases the eagerness of women to infinity) Again, means "a lot"/"extremely" rather than "endlessly or "forever"
 * Ibid 26.16.6: "tum primum pensili balinearum usu ad infinitum blandiente." (then the first of baths by using massage to infinity) Not quite sure what this one says
 * Ibid 31.32.2: "ideo et nives praeferunt nivibusque etiam glaciem, velut ad infinitum coacta subtilitate" (Thus also, snows come first and also ice [before]? snows, as if simplicity was forced to infinity) '''Shading into "forever" here)
 * Ibid 31.95.7: "transiit deinde in luxuriam, creveruntque genera ad infinitum," (Then he went over into luxury, and the families contested endlessly) temporal makes most sense here
 * Ibid 34.5.5: "cum ad infinitum operum pretia creverint" (When they recognised the value of endless work) Adjective modifying operum, so not a case of ad infinitum operating as an adverb
 * Ibid 34.35.4: "sed haec ad infinitum effloruit" (but this flowers to infinity) Probably temporal meaning'
 * Ibid 36.121.12: "quae nunc Romae ad infinitum auxere numerum." (Who now increased the prestige [lit. "rank"] of Rome to infinity) hyperbolically means infinity - to impossible heights
 * Quintilianus Institutio Oratoria 11.2.41.9: "in summam ad infinitum usque perueniat" (it may come into perfection, all the way to infinity) I think this literally means infinity
 * Servius Grammaticus Commentaries on Vergil 4.493.4 "accingier' autem, ut ad infinitum modum 'er' addatur" (But, "to be girded round," so that "er" is augmented for the endless metre) Appears to be temporal, but is an adjective modifying "modum"
 * Justinian Digest 23.2.53.preamble.3 "siue proximi siue ulterioris gradus sint usque ad infinitum." (the ranks either before or after shall be [thus] continually to infinity) This is the English use. Note that it is late legal Latin - I suspect that use in decrees like these could be the source for the phrase's English meaning
 * Ibid 46.8.8.2.8 "quia aestimatio libertatis ad infinitum extenderetur" (for which reason, the judgement of free status would be extended to infinity) '''Again, Justinian, again coincides with the English meaning.
 * Of course, Diogenes' search function is not perfect, and this is unlikely to be all uses in Latin by any means, but it seems likely to be as fair a sample as any. Out of these 14 usages, three are adjectives (Diogenes gave me two more e.g.s of this, with infinitam in the feminine), three are adverbs with the English sense, two mean "to infinity" as a destination, three just mean "a lot" or "extremely" (Apparently a Plinian verbal tick), two more are either "a lot" or the English temporal sense, and one I don't understand.
 * So, after all that, 1) in Latin the phrase did not have the restricted sense it has in English. 2) It seems fairly SoP, as shown by the wide range of meanings that can be attached to it. 3) It doesn't seem to have been particularly common in Latin, either with the English meaning or any of the others. 4) The two quotations from Justinian may indicate that this began to change in Late Latin - it would not surprise me if it entered English from legal documents declaring that this or that was to last "ad infinitum". But I have no evidence of that, nor any knowledge of Latin after Justinian.DeleteFurius (talk) 02:28, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Justinian seems to use only the English sense (or at least a sense very close to it). It could easily be explained as a SoP once, but for 2 out of 2 that's rather improbable. So we have a native writer and speaker of Latin using it exclusively in the modern English sense. --129.125.102.126 21:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

kept and tagged -- Liliana • 17:30, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

that one is different

 * de aeternitatis: from infinity, from forever, eternally preexisting/preexistent