Talk:beat the crap out of

beat the crap out of
Definitely sum of parts, though I'm not sure what entry we should have, maybe the crap to go with the fuck and the devil (so to speak). We also have beat the shit out of, and you can change the initial verb; kick to the crap out of; kick the shit out of. Probably many other examples, I'll happily do a Google Book search to see what the numbers are. Mglovesfun (talk) 23:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you explain why you think it's sum of parts? ---&gt; Tooironic 04:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Because one of the senses of crap is shit. That is relevant because crap is a euphemism. The plausible construction of a phrase involving "crap" that cannot be managed with a literal sense, would be interpreted with the euphemistic sense. If someone can't interpret it metaphorically we have beat the shit out of. We could have entries for every non-euphemistic word that can fit into the "shit" slot, such as "stuffing", "tar", "daylights", "hell", "Jesus", "fuck", etc. (and relevant synonyms, especially euphemisms. Or we could have an appendix for the construction "to V the NP out of" and explain what can fill the V and NP slots. Note that it is an NP not just a N and there are all kinds of subtleties as to which adjuncts can modify the various nouns. For example, "living" doesn't work so well with "stuffing" and "tar", but reasonably well with the rest and excellently with "daylights". Treating each possibility lexically is absurd, though I'm sure that there are many lurking newbies who would volunteer to give their best efforts to making new entries of this type. DCDuring TALK 07:25, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. The SOP allegation is hard to understand for me: the allegation seems to rely on the existence of "beat the shit out of". In any case, this is non-literal language, and cannot be decoded by a non-native speaker by reading the component words of the phrase. Also, this idiom is very common by Google hits. At worst, this should be a redirect to "beat the shit out of".--Dan Polansky 09:47, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You probably should have read my nomination in full then. It goes way beyond those two, as DCDuring says you can beat many things:


 * beat the crap out of, 8640
 * beat the shit out of, 17 700
 * beat the fuck out of, 419
 * kick the crap out of, 1060
 * kick the shit out of, 4650
 * kick the fuck out of, 62
 * Mglovesfun (talk) 10:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So what? How do the searches in Google books prove that this is a semantic sum of parts? Sum of which parts? Which of the six listed search terms would you keep, if any? --Dan Polansky 13:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * None of them. Maybe to non-natives speakers it's quite difficult, but for a native speaker this is way off idiomatic. I haven't decided what the parts are (that is, how to express it in Wiktionary terms). BTW I'd rather keep the entries than have this redirect to beat the shit out of. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not sum of parts, but I don't think it's the job of a dictionary to explain the metaphors involved. Maybe it is? Not sure. The earliest form seems to have been "beat the stuffing out of" someone (as though they were a scarecrow or doll); then "beat the shit out of" developed as a more expressive and vulgar version. Then apparently the "the shit" bit was taken as simply intensive, leading to non-literal variants like "beat the fuck out of", although they are still less common. I would delete it personally, as this seems beyond the remit of a dictionary. < class="latinx" >Ƿidsiþ 16:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually it's a formula: "X the Y out of" where X is a verb and Y is a noun, usually a vulgar word. Remember X one's Y off? Mglovesfun (talk) 23:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Just for the heck of it, I tried, and whaddaya know, it gets over a dozen relevant hits. —Ruakh TALK 00:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "crapped the shit out of" seems unattestable: and . The hits given above by MG are from Google books; on the Google web, some of the above six phrases are very common.
 * The formula "V the NP out of" does not allow any free combination. So far, only two verbs have been attested on the V position. Another thing is, many non-SOP terms follow the formula " ": fitting into a formula alone does not make then exclusion-worthy. --Dan Polansky 18:55, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So what? There are hardly any two nouns and verb that combine without some semantic limitations. DCDuring TALK 22:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Quick Books searches show ample hits for slap, punch, and thrash, and even two for eat (,, plus on Usenet). &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 19:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Now added to Appendix:Snowclones. — lexicógrafa &#124; háblame — 19:18, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. DCDuring TALK 22:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think Appendix:Snowclones is a good place for this. WP, quoting Language Log, defines a snowclone in part as a "quoted or misquoted phrase or sentence that can be used in an entirely open array of different variants"; "X the Y out of" can be used in an open array of variants, but it isn't quoting or misquoting anything. All of the other items on the list would be meant or understood as allusions to the given original quotations; "beat the shit out of" is not an allusion to "kick the shit out of" nor vice versa. I'll have to think for a while to figure out where this does belong... — Beobach 08:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)


 * NB that this entry previously existed at X the Y out of, and was moved to this form because it was the most common form: Requests for deletion/Archives/2007/06. — Beobach 08:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * We should get back to that. Really what we have here is "verb the noun out of", for which almost any verb and noun can be used. Understanding that the verb portion can be infinitely substituted, what we are left with is "verb the X out of". bd2412 T 04:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Re 'Really what we have here is "verb the noun out of", for which almost any verb and noun can be used.' You do not really mean this literally ("almost any"), do you? From the set of all the possible pairs (verb, noun), only a tiny fraction forms an attestable phrase when substituted into the scheme " the out of". The set of all verbs that can be used on the first position is already a small fraction of the set of all transitive verbs. Furthermore, while the construction " the out of" is fairly common, not every use of this construction is idiomatic. Again, the discussed phrase is such that its meaning is unobvious from the meanings of the component words. --Dan Polansky 11:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, almost any. I'll wash the X out of my veggies, then dance the X out of a pair of shoes, then sing the X out of a song. It is obvious that to do something, anything, such that you do "the X out of it" means to do it thoroughly and vigorously. bd2412 T 16:29, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Going over the same ground on this is beginning to bore the living hell out of me. The subject has been discussed to death. We've milked it for all it's worth. Our lexicographic entry paradigm has run its course. It is time for soemthing new. I would welcome suggestions for something more general than snowclone and more specific than grammar to include such expressions. Construction grammar is the framework, but I'm not sure what a good entry would look like. Suggestions welcome. DCDuring TALK 17:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The set of counterexamples to the "almost any verb and noun" claim is huge. To give an idea of what these counterexamples look like: "dig the sun out of", "chew the monkey out of", "damage the mushroom out of", "mind the business out of", "bend the integer out of", etc. Instead of "almost any verb and noun", you possibly mean "many verbs and several nouns".
 * I do admit the point that there are many attestable phrases that fit the pattern. (A common one not yet mentioned is "scare the hell out of".) I do not see how the maniness makes the phrases non-idiomatic, though. --Dan Polansky 08:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * One more afterthought, maybe an aside: not every phrase that fits into " the out of" fits into the discussed snowclone cluster or whatever it is: "let the cat out of the bag", "get the camera out of my pocket". Some interesting searches with wildcards:, . --Dan Polansky 13:56, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's the point I was going to make; not every combination of "get the * out of *" will be attestable where *1 and *2 are nouns. But that's not a reason to include the ones that are attested. I wouldn't want an entry for I want a biscuit because I want a polymorphism isn't attestable. Dan, I just think your logic is bad in this case. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not get what you are talking about, or how it relates to my previous post. I have not suggested that every attestable non-idiomatic rendering of "get the * out of *" should be included, which you seem to imply in your response. I am saying that every attestable and idiomatic (non-sum-of-parts) rendering should be included, such as "let the cat out of the bag". Above all, I reject the claim that "let the cat out of the bag" has to be excluded because it fits " the out of the ". --Dan Polansky 14:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've been unclear to which of your comments I'm responding. My argument is simply that this isn't idiomatic. It's fully transparent to a native English speaker. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe you are understating the case. I would expect that anyone who hears or reads colloquial English usage and has good (EN-2?) knowledge of English generally would have no trouble getting the meaning of this expression, especially with access to a non-prudish dictionary. DCDuring TALK 14:34, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the problem lies in the flexibility. I agree, I may have overstated with (any verb) the (any noun), but surely there are hundreds of verbs and hundreds of nouns yielding tens of thousands of possible combinations. For just the violence-related variations, we could:
 * beat/bash/bonk/hit/punch/kick/knee/elbow/smack/slap/strap/smash/smush/pummel/ hammer/main/attack/fight/assault/batter/splatter/stick/stab/murder/kill/ harm/hurt/destroy/drop/whip/whup/thrash/thump/grapple/ wrestle/squeeze/strike/shellack
 * the
 * heck/hell/devil/fuck/shit/crap/crud/stuff/stuffing/pudding/life/stars/holy Moses/ stones/mercy/tar/mush/wind/brains/sense/snap/feathers/lunch/daylights/bejeesus
 * out of each other.
 * I suppose it would be interesting, perhaps in an appendix, to gather together all of the collocations that actually meet the CFI. bd2412 T 17:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @bd2412, 6 October 2011: So I have tried and, with almost no hits and no hits. So again, the assertion of there being a combinatorial explosion of attestable and idiomatic phrases of the form " the out of the " seems implausible. You speak of tens of thousands of possible combinations (likely an intentional hyperbole); I challenge you to find just 50 attestable combinations. --Dan Polansky 18:26, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It's kind of sleazy class of phrase and I think that muddies the water. Maybe a separate thread under rfd: beat the stuffing out of would help bring the issue into proper focus?Geof Bard 20:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Here is a list of attestable variants of this construction. - -sche (discuss) 19:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Possibly: rip the crap out of, rip the stuffing out of, rip the shit out of (but these may mean literally ripping things out of something).
 * 1) rip the fuck out of (seems to be of this construction, unlike 'rip the crap out of')
 * 2) beat the crap out of
 * 3) beat the living crap out of
 * 4) beat the holy crap out of
 * 5) beat the stuffing out of
 * 6) beat the shit out of
 * 7) beat the living shit out of
 * 8) beat the ever-living shit out of
 * 9) beat the holy shit out of
 * 10) beat the daylights out of
 * 11) beat the living daylights out of
 * 12) beat the fuck out of
 * 13) beat the living fuck out of
 * 14) beat the holy fuck out of
 * 15) beat the hell out of
 * 16) beat the living hell out of
 * 17) beat the holy hell out of
 * 18) knock the crap out of
 * 19) knock the living crap out of
 * 20) knock the holy crap out of
 * 21) knock the stuffing out of
 * 22) knock the living stuffing out of
 * 23) knock the shit out of
 * 24) knock the living shit out of
 * 25) knock the holy shit out of
 * 26) knock the fuck out of
 * 27) knock the living fuck out of
 * 28) knock the hell out of
 * 29) knock the living hell out of
 * 30) kick the crap out of
 * 31) kick the living crap out of
 * 32) kick the stuffing out of
 * 33) kick the living stuffing out of
 * 34) kick the shit out of
 * 35) kick the living shit out of
 * 36) kick the fuck out of
 * 37) kick the living fuck out of
 * 38) kick the hell out of
 * 39) kick the living hell out of
 * 40) punch the crap out of
 * 41) punch the living crap out of
 * 42) punch the stuffing out of
 * 43) punch the shit out of
 * 44) punch the living shit out of
 * 45) punch the fuck out of
 * 46) punch the living fuck out of
 * 47) punch the hell out of
 * 48) punch the living hell out of
 * 49) whomp the crap out of
 * 50) whomp the stuffing out of
 * 51) whomp the shit out of
 * 52) whomp the hell out of
 * 53) trample the crap out of
 * 54) trample the shit out of
 * 55) trample the hell out of
 * 56) smash the crap out of
 * 57) smash the living crap out of
 * 58) smash the stuffing out of
 * 59) smash the shit out of
 * 60) smash the living shit out of
 * 61) smash the hell out of
 * 62) smash the living hell out of
 * 63) wallop the crap out of
 * 64) wallop the shit out of
 * 65) wallop the hell out of
 * 66) destroy the shit out of
 * 67) destroy the hell out of
 * 68) obliterate the shit out of
 * 69) ban the crap out of
 * 70) ban the shit out of
 * 71) ban the fuck out of
 * 72) ban the hell out of
 * 73) murder the shit out of
 * 74) murder the hell out of
 * 75) kill the crap out of
 * 76) kill the shit out of
 * 77) kill the living shit out of
 * 78) kill the fuck out of
 * 79) kill the hell out of
 * 80) slice the crap out of
 * 81) slice the shit out of
 * 82) slice the fuck out of
 * 83) slice the hell out of
 * 84) bite the crap out of
 * 85) bite the shit out of
 * 86) bite the fuck out of
 * 87) bite the hell out of
 * 88) break the crap out of
 * 89) break the shit out of
 * 90) break the fuck out of
 * 91) break the hell out of
 * 92) nuke the crap out of
 * 93) nuke the shit out of
 * 94) nuke the fuck out of
 * 95) nuke the hell out of
 * 96) slap the crap out of
 * 97) slap the living crap out of
 * 98) slap the shit out of
 * 99) slap the living shit out of
 * 100) slap the fuck out of
 * 101) slap the living fuck out of
 * 102) slap the hell out of
 * 103) slap the living hell out of
 * 104) thrash the crap out of
 * 105) thrash the living crap out of
 * 106) thrash the shit out of
 * 107) thrash the living shit out of
 * 108) thrash the fuck out of
 * 109) thrash the hell out of
 * 110) thrash the living hell out of
 * Possibly melt the crap out of, melt the hell out of; possibly vote the shit out of (look on Usenet, haha), tolerate the hell out of, fuck the cap out of, fuck the stuffing out of, fuck the shit out of, love the crap out of, love shit out of, love the fuck out of, or do those use (a) different sense(s)?.
 * I express no opinion at this time on whether beat the crap out of should be kept or deleted. - -sche (discuss) 18:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems some of the listed phrases are attestable only via Usernet groups:, , , , , . Assuming now that the above list is one of more than 50 borderline attestable phrases and that someone is bothered with the sheer number, the solution to this bother would be to include only the most common phrases, such as with its 597 Google books hits, and exclude  with its 5  Google books hits. The included entries could contain a usage note that describes the variability of the pattern. I do admit that the number of Google books hits is not a CFI consideration, but excluding some of the rare phrases while including the really common ones seems okay to me, serving the users of the dictionary well. --Dan Polansky 19:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Beat, kick, and punch the tar out of are all attestable on Google Books (although differing in the number of hits by orders of magnitude). bd2412 T 19:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Usenet is perfectly valid attestation unless we are becoming more literary/prescriptivist. I seems to me to be a better reflection of a large class of contemporary colloquial speech than dialogue in typical fiction. It's often not to my personal taste, but the same can be said of much speech. DCDuring TALK 20:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, I was just pointing out that "tar" is a productive "Y" in an "X the Y out of" formulation. So are "snot" and "piss". I suppose it would be reasonable to have one entry at the most common "X the Y out of" variation, with all other attestable variations pointing to it. bd2412 T 14:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Non-violent derivations like "vote the shit out of" lead me to believe we should cover this construction somewhere. However, we have no good place to keep such constructions: VERB the NOUN out of/X the Y out of is not intuitive, but adding all attested variants, even as redirects to one entry or appendix, is not ideal (because the term becomes sum-of-parts, because such a variety of parts add up to the sum). - -sche (discuss) 20:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

kept as there isn't really any kind of consensus right now either way. -- Liliana • 16:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)