Talk:bunduki

I had been confused by where & when the sense "gun" arose; I find it in Hayyim (which is why I have the Swahili from Persian rather than straight from Arabic) but not in Steingass. , do you have any insight? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 20:45, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * None of those means gun, but means or meant a kind of small projectile or cartridge thereof.  means gun in Standard Arabic (in dialects we have some other words like ). Don’t know why the Swahili wouldn’t be rather from . The terms come, like many weapon terms, from the . Since the Ottomans where superior in their weapons, as history shows (see also my conversation with Allahverdi with the conclusion that the Azerbaijanis were behind and borrowed weapon terms from Turkish), and early occurrences likewise refer to the Ottomans employing, or rather , it might be in Arabic a semantic loan from , but this probably remains speculative; the Mamālīk also invented stuff. See also ’s 1956 book Gunpowder and firearms in the Mamluk kingdom about Mamlūk weaponry. (If I made a template for him, I would make one for his lifework, like T:R:ar:Agius, but half is in Hebrew.) Fay Freak (talk) 21:25, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , you say that "[n]one of those means gun" and removed the Persian from the entry, but Hayyim defines as "A musket." Moreover, that would explain the same semantic transfer in Hindustani, which obviously got the word itself via Persian. This would be highly irregular if it were from, which should produce *bundukia. So what is your reasoning for removing it? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 23:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I don’t know what I referred to with “those”, but I don’t see even in Dehkhoda the meaning “gun”. If ever present it is probably peripheral. For the Hindustani term /, and 🇨🇬, one must ask why the form is bandūq and not bunduq, furthermore it is feminine for some reason. This suggest some derivation we have yet to discern. I have left the most certain part, that ultimately all such forms, may it by mediator language and derivation, are from Arabic . How was arms trade in the East African coast anyway? Has Iran really been participating amongst all the Arabs? Fay Freak (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Well the length is somewhat likely because of end stress in Persian. Fay Freak (talk) 23:31, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * In looking around, I see multiple sources claiming an Arabic meaning "guns" as a collective, with  being construed as its singular. Is it possible we are merely missing a (presumably obsolete) sense in the Arabic entry that would obviate any need for an intermediate? —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 23:40, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Dehkhoda gives a meaning rifle. But I don’t find indications that بندق means = تفنگ, they hardly even appear on the same page. I see indeed, like you, 🇨🇬 meaning allegedly guns according to Spoken Arabic of Egypt 1901.  is even still given with the meaning “rifle” in Hinds/Badawi (1986), plural  (this is likewise the plural of ), and Hinds/Badawi give  the interesting label “rural”, also listing . Some web results may confirm this. The Modern Egyptian Arabic dictionary seems to not know  in favor of -īya. This brings us to the underdocumented Omani and Yemeni Arabic (which latter is split in three languages on Wiktionary, which nobody will sort out, especially since they are busy defeating the KSA). Fay Freak (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Well in Yemen, also , totally means or meant rifle, arquebus etc., according to the referenced . The Persian and Indian must also be from such a dialectal form. Fay Freak (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Helpfully confirmed here in a book on Shehri; the list of borrowings merely says "Arabic", but it is clearly not MSA, considering words like . —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 01:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * You mean because it is from an Omani MSA language? Surely that does confirm, since this is an areal term. I have also seen a borrowing in Omani Mehri in a book they imply. Absurd situation that Modern South Arabian is more accessible than Omani Arabic. Fay Freak (talk) 01:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I meant Modern Standard Arabic, sorry. I agree about the absurdity — there is of course the book by Reinhardt which covers the exact dialect I'm interested in (Omani Arabic as spoken on Zanzibar), but it has no wordlist and I read German slowly. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 02:33, 17 January 2020 (UTC)