Talk:buzul kuşu

RFV discussion: May 2021–January 2023
Turkish. Zero Google Books hits, from the people that brought you sınalgı (see Talk:buzulkuşu for some of the backstory). Chuck Entz (talk) 14:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Buzul means glacier and kuş means bird, so buzul kuşu means glacier bird. If you try to translate buzul kuşu from Turkish to English by Google translate it will result glacier bird and if you try to translate glacier bird from English to Turkish then it will result buzul kuşu. If you ask any Turkish speaker how do you say glacier bird in Turkish? probably every one will say it is buzul kuşu in Turkish. There is no allegation that it means a penguin or it means another bird.


 * If you search by adding some suffixes to this word, you can find some cites:
 * Ursula K. Le Guin (translator: Ümit Altuğ), Karanlığın Sol Eli (original name: The Left Hand of Darkness), 2004, p. 36 ISBN:978-975-539-044-4 (printed book which is not listed in Google Books but can be found by Google search).
 * salıverilince donan buzul kuşları gibi hava koşullarına karşı fizyolojik dirençlerini yitirebilirler.
 * TRT Vizyon (monthly journal), June 2020 by Türkiye Radyo Televizyon Kurumu (official Turkish Radio and Television Establishment), p. 28.
 * Peru’da bulunan buzul, dünyanın buza yuva yapan tek kuşu, beyaz kanatlı buzul kuşuna ev... --5.46.180.19 18:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Çerkez Bozdağ, Buzul Kuşuna Çağrı, 2017 (it's a book name itself). --5.46.180.19 20:03, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The “glacier bird” is a bird species found along the Andes. One wouldn’t expect a Turkish common name for an inconspicuous bird found only in South America. The use in Karanlığın Sol Eli translates the original English Arctic birds (“Perhaps if they did they would lose their physiological waterproofing, like Arctic birds kept in warm tents, who being released get frostbitten feet.”), so this is a different sense. --Lambiam 13:50, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

There is no allegation that it is a specific bird. It literally means a glacier bird and can be used for any bird which lives in glaciers. Only the second cite (which is from the official radio and television establishment of Turkey) represents a white-winged Diuca finch in the form of 'Beyaz Kanatlı Buzul Kuşu'. --5.46.180.19 16:10, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Right, but the requested verification requires at least three uses in which the term has a specific meaning, not just a generic “bird found on ice”. So the use in Karanlığın Sol Eli does not count. It is not obvious that the one in TRT Vizyon is not purely descriptive, what with its beyaz kanatlı. If I saw the text “Peru’da bulunan çöl, dünyanın kume yuva yapan tek kuşu, sarı tepeli çöl kuşuna ev sahipliği yapıyor”, I would think that sarı tepeli çöl kuşu (“yellow-crested desert bird”) is either descriptive, or a common name for some bird species that makes it nest in the desert sand; the idea that just “çöl kuşu” is meant to identify a species might not occur to me (even though is a species). I am in the dark about the nature of the bird Çerkez Bozdağ is summoning; it is apparently a collection of poems, so this is likely the title of one of the poems in the book.  --Lambiam 22:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)


 * As an outsider with no Turkish ability, I must ask -- if this is literally just +, and it does not refer to any specific species, and it has no idiomatic meaning as a set phrase, then is this not a sum-of-parts term, same as "blue igloo" or "house wall"?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:26, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

If there is English word seabird which means Any bird that spends most of its time in coastal waters or over the oceans. here then Turkish word buzul kuşu can stay, I think. Am I wrong? --5.46.180.19 23:49, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It may be a matter of idiomaticity -- 🇨🇬 is generally considered to be a single integral term, and we have an entry for that, but is not considered to be a single word, nor is it idiomatic, and we don't have any entry for this collocation.
 * By way of analogy, if Turkish speakers / readers / writers consider to be a single integral term, we may presumably want an entry for that, even if the pieces are as straightforward as the  and  in .  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:15, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What Eirikr just wrote is also my understanding. --RichardW57 (talk) 00:43, 26 May 2021 (UTC)


 * If the term was considered an idiomatic combination, we should indeed also find it written as a single word, just as is the case for tarla kuşu, which many authors spell tarlakuşu. But no acceptable uses of buzulkuşu are found. It seems to me that buzul kuşu is no more considered an idiomatic combination than, or . The meanings are clear enough, yet each is a sum of parts. Maybe also relevant is that , a neologism introduced to replace the term cümudiye, of Arabic origin and not acceptable to the purist language reformers, has a somewhat more general sense than . It can also be used for a stationary thick ice cap; hence its (reasonable) use in translating LeGuin’s Arctic birds. The neologism was formed as . But let the term have its chance for survival; if not attested, it will eventually go the way of . Any uses offered by way of attestation should make clear, though, that the term is indeed not merely used as a sum of parts.  --Lambiam 20:40, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Seabird is deniz kuşu in Turkish. Penguen in the official Turkish Language Association's Up-to-date Turkish dictionary: Penguengillerden, Güney Kutbu'nda yaşayan, sırtı kara, göğsü ak, iyi yüzen, deniz hayvanlarıyla beslenen, uçamayan, kısa kanatlı deniz kuşu (Aptenodytes patagonica) and as you can see it is written separately. --5.176.72.229 16:07, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Plus more, there is an article whose title is deniz kuşu on Turkish wikipedia.--5.176.72.229 16:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Spacing alone is not enough. Is deniz kuşu considered to be an idiomatic collocation?  Just looking at Google hits, I find the following:
 * Deniz kuşu generates 92K+ hits, from a wide variety of sources:
 * Buzul kuşu generates 44 hits, a good chunk of which appear to be from user-generated texts like Wiktionary:
 * Without even knowing any Turkish, I can objectively say that buzul kuşu is not used much at all by Turkish-writing users online. I might infer subjectively that deniz kuşu is a common-enough collocation that it might have idiomatic meaning.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:19, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


 * As an admin on tr.wiktionary and tr.wiki, I just want to mention some facts. Actually, we always delete this word from these projects. Because there's a huge effort on adding this word at all costs. Both "buzul" and "kuş" have meanings in Turkish language however they always produce or search unreliable sources and they try to add this word based on these sources. They want to add this word over 10 years. I don't follow these RFV discussions but I've noticed that accidentally. They also want to add many invented words like "sınalgı" in tr.wiktionary but they usually fail due to our acceptableness criteria. They sometimes complain to me like "this word exists on en.wiktionary, why do you always delete it". However every wiki project has different dynamics. I believe that they won't give up. Actually it's getting boring follow these efforts but I couldn't stop myself...--Sabri76' talk 20:12, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You are an admin on Turkish wiktionary but you don't obey the community decisions. There is 3 cites criteria there as is here, but you don't accept the cites if you don't want to see a word on wiktionary. Even you come here and write a comment in order to try to make a word remove from here, while you are not an active user on English wiktionary. But you keep the word püskevit on Turkish wiktionary while it doesn't meet the criteria. --5.176.72.229 16:16, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * As above, is buzul kuşu idiomatic? Or is it just an unidiomatic combination of  + ?  If the latter, then the number of citations doesn't matter.
 * I must confess, the English phrase glacier bird doesn't really signify anything to me, it just sounds weird, like latex asparagus or concrete underwear. I wonder if the Turkish phrase leaves Turkish readers similarly scratching their heads?  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:19, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The first citation is a Turkish translation; the original English text (The Left Hand of Darkness [//books.google.nl/books?id=MDveDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT46&dq=%22Arctic+birds%22#v=onepage&q=%22Arctic%20birds%22&f=false]) has "Arctic birds", not "glacier birds".
 * The second citation (TRT Vizyon ) is an article about the BBC documentary "Mountain: Life at the Extreme" (Turkish title: "Dağlar; Bulutların Üzerinde Yaşam"); the bird species "white-winged diuca finch" (also known as "glacier bird") from that documentary is translated as "beyaz kanatlı buzul kuşu" in this Turkish text. No evidence for the claim "buzul kuşu means any bird living on glaciers".
 * The third citation is the title of a book. You'll need the content of the book to determine what type of bird the author means.
 * In general, sure, if you want, you can put "buzul" + "kuş" together to form "buzul kuşu", but that's just a sum of parts; nothing idiomatic, not even a common collocation.
 * (And just for the record, Sabri76 is an experienced admin; he has explained many times to this ip user why some entries are deleted and others are kept.) -- Curious (talk) 19:43, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , I think we've reached a consensus on this discussion.--Sabri76' talk 12:30, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Any opinion on the validity of these cites? Do they really all convey the same meaning, the one glossed in the entry? The last one in particular doesn't really give much to work with. &mdash; Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 04:12, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * i have no knowledge in terms of zoology so keep me out of this :) İtidal (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * First, the definition is clearly a sum of parts. Non-idiomatic English ice bird translates to non-idiomatic Turkish ice bird.  As for the three citations, it has been pointed out that the first is a translation of a sum of parts English phrase.  The last phrase Buzul Kuşuna Çağrı appears to me to mean calling the ice bird.  It is evidence that the words have been written in that order, but not that they mean anything special.  I think this fails.  Vox Sciurorum (talk) 13:57, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

RFV-failed as above, three non-SOP citations have not been produced. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 04:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)