Talk:cha-sat

RFV and discussion of entries from unreliable sources
It seems that this is not a word neither in Aleut nor in Alutiiq, only something, probably a Russian word, that somebody has heard, has interpreted as an Aleut word, and has tried to write. Deleted on fr.wikt. Lmaltier 21:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Good guess. See час, which could be transliterated as "chas" Chuck Entz 22:00, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, the mere fact that it comes from Russian doesn't mean that it's not also a loanword in Aleut Chuck Entz 22:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * For information, the source seems to be the following (unreliable) book: Charles A. Lee, Alaska Indian Dictionary, 1896
 * Relevant discussions on fr.wikt:
 * fr:Discussion_utilisateur:Pamputt/Archives2011
 * fr:Discussion_utilisateur:Unsui
 * fr:Wiktionnaire:Wikidémie/février_2012
 * All words of the Aleut category should be checked as well, as many (most?) probably come from the same source. According to fr.wikt discussions, many words from this source are tentative transcriptions of Alutiiq (not Aleut) words. Some other words seem to be Russian. Lmaltier 22:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * delete all of Category:Aleut language. Actually I've noted before how all these entries are basically garbage from a public domain book, but I kept it for myself instead of opening a discussion on it. -- Liliana • 23:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * addendum: as well, Category:Kalispel-Pend d'Oreille language should be deleted for the very same reason. I think we had a discussion on it but it went nowhere. -- Liliana • 13:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by the exact same reason? Was that a copy of an old source, and which one?--Prosfilaes 14:25, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The source is: Joseph Giorda, A dictionary of the Kalispel or Flat-head Indian language, 1877, archive.org -- Liliana • 14:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * This dictionary? Project Gutenberg is hardly going to disappear any time soon, so there's no reason to copy data from it if we don't trust it.--Prosfilaes 10:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There are better sources online, like this one: Chuck Entz 22:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that this source might use the other source. The presence of "-" in words is characteristic of this source. Lmaltier 22:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking at the paragraph on "Non-Russian Aleut Studies" (p. 93) doesn't encourage that notion. Charles Lee isn't mentioned at all, unless indirectly referred to by "There are word lists of ten to a hundred and fifty words in sundry authors, from Coxe (London, 1780) onward. These are quite unscientific and of no present-day value." It relies a lot on older work by Veniaminov, but it seems like they analyzed the data and checked things with informants. It might not be up to present-day standards, but it's a world apart from the other source- which is quite amateurish. Chuck Entz 23:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I misunderstood you. I understood that the source you mention was a confirmation for this word. But it does not include cha-sat, and the words it mentions don't look like words we have here. Actually, this source is a confirmation that our entries are bad. Lmaltier 21:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks like we'll have to move or delete and re-create pretty much everything. My point is that we have tools with which to do so. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:50, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * While I don't have an Aleut dictionary, I could get an Aleut grammar if it helps you. -- Liliana • 00:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

After some research, there does seem to be a word like this borrowed from Russian. However, I was only able to find its inflected forms, and don't know what the infinitive form is. -- Liliana • 19:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Infinitive? For a noun? Lmaltier 20:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * ...you know what I'm trying to say, right? The uninflected form, the one you would be expected to find in dictionaries as the headword. -- Liliana • 00:55, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you provide details about what you've found? Citations? Lmaltier (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually disregard me, because I just found it: chasix̂. -- Liliana • 04:19, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you add citations? No hit at all (Google, Google books) for "chasix̂". Lmaltier (talk) 08:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I would, the problem is, it's in Cyrillic script and I can't transliterate. (This word I could only because I already knew its inflected forms) -- Liliana • 13:01, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe the term you wanted is citation form Chuck Entz (talk) 13:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If citations you found are on Internet, could you provide a link? But the word might be obsolete anyway and, if so, I don't think that it's acceptable to create it here in the Latin alphabet if it has never been written in this alphabet and cannot be in the future. Lmaltier (talk) 14:42, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * , 14:35: Ма́лихъ а̑синаг̑улахъ аҥа́нудусаԟада́мъ, та́намъ ку́ганъ ачи́хсихъ, камга́нах̑ъ, малга́кагуҥисъ ўа́нъ ча́сих̑ъ Иля́нъ аги́х̑та куҥи́нъ. Note the Russian orthography doesn't distinguish between long and short vowels unlike the Latin one. Also, this has very likely been written in the Latin script before, just we can't find it on the Internet. -- Liliana • 14:45, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Certain not: at the time, the language was using Cyrillic characters only. But it could have been transliterated, after 1918? Thanks for the link. Lmaltier (talk) 15:24, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It’s probably more a question of spelling. In Yup’ik, the word for clock, watch, hour is cass'aq (from часы; c is pronounced like ch). Aleut spells with ch instead of just c. However, I don’t know why the Aleut should have a hyphen. —Stephen (Talk) 16:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * chasix̂ is attested in Atkan dialect in 1860, and was again recorded in 1952 in Attuan dialect. An alternative spelling is chasax̂, hour, time but found only in 19th century in Eastern and Atkan dialects. These infos come from the Aleut Dictionary of Knut Bergsland -Alaska Native Language Center, 1994, which is the most complete source for Aleut. one can also find derived : ataqan chasax̂ one o'clock (1950; Eastern dial. of Nikolski) or (1983; Eastern dial. of Akutan) karmaan(am)-chasangin pocket watch; cham-ixcha(n)-chasangin wrist watch. Dhegiha (talk) 23:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, Stephen is right : this word comes from alutiiq cassaq. As it has been already said, this list contents mostly russian pidgin words with some alutiiq words : ex: Na-shuk from alutiiq nasquq (head), Ukt-nactuk from alutiiq uqnartuq (hot), Arkat from alutiiq aigat (hands) (note the plural with t, aleut plural is with n or s) and so on ...) There are no aleut words stricto sensu. It is not really amazing because this list comes from Oogashik (today Ugashik) located in alutiiq territory and not in aleuts' one. (these two languages are very differents and mutually inintelligibles : alutiiq is an inuit language, aleut not, even if they belong to the large eskimo-aleut family.) In this time (1896) it was common to call the aleut peninsula of Alaska aleut and there was not yet a distinction aleut/alutiiq that can explain the mistake. In all case, these words can't be entered untreated in wiktionnary (they are all phonetiq transcription (for alutiiq words for exemple, the classical opposition q/k (uvalar stops/velar stops) is lacking like almost in all lists of this period. It's why I've asked for the suppression of these words from the french wiktionary. Unsui (talk) 09:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

deleted per Beer_parlour -- Liliana • 02:00, 11 March 2012 (UTC)