Talk:cleric in minor orders

RFD discussion: July 2022–July 2023
SOP. Graham11 (talk) 04:41, 9 July 2022 (UTC)


 * A member of one of the four minor orders of the Catholic Church.
 * Keep for a few reasons:
 * It passes the test at WT:IDIOM as it’s irregular. For example, A cleric in minor orders could no longer see his vocation as a steppingstone to the priesthood. and Don Josef Galindo y Soriano was fiel ejecutor and don Francisco Galindo y Soriano the other cleric in minor orders (he also had a house on the town square).
 * It passes WT:TENNIS as it’s a profession.
 * It passes the test as it’s tightly bound.
 * Theknightwho (talk) 04:52, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What about it is irregular such that it would pass the once-upon-a-time test?
 * Re WT:TENNIS, provided that we mean in the sense of professional occupation (sense 2), it's more a class of professions (,, etc.) than a profession unto itself. Graham11 (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It’s irregular because is a countable plural, which should take the definite article (“cleric in the minor orders”), but it doesn’t for some reason.
 * If you look at the quotations, they’re clearly using the term as the primary term for someone’s profession. In any event, most terms for professions that we have are classes of more specific professions (e.g. there are many kinds of lawyer). Theknightwho (talk) 05:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What about these quotations? Some of them show the same characteristics outside of the nominated phrase. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:40, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * And also “monk in minor orders”, “prelate in minor orders” and “commendator in minor orders”. --Lambiam 09:01, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hmmm - should we have as an adjective? Or convert  to a proper noun? Theknightwho (talk) 15:10, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Technically I think in minor orders would be a prepositional phrase (like in Abraham's bosom, in broad daylight etc; it doesn't seem to meet tests of adjectivity), but AFAICT it'd be SOP as just "in" + "minor orders". I also don't see why "minor orders" would be proper noun, at least not in general, though you could capitalize it to express greater specificity and hence proper-noun-ness, like you could do with the Church or the Website or other things. (And if Talk:Church is to be followed, we could have near-duplicate entries for Everything, But Capitalized... but "church" and "minor orders" etc would still be common nouns AFAICT.) - -sche (discuss) 02:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Technically I think in minor orders would be a prepositional phrase (like in Abraham's bosom, in broad daylight etc; it doesn't seem to meet tests of adjectivity), but AFAICT it'd be SOP as just "in" + "minor orders". I also don't see why "minor orders" would be proper noun, at least not in general, though you could capitalize it to express greater specificity and hence proper-noun-ness, like you could do with the Church or the Website or other things. (And if Talk:Church is to be followed, we could have near-duplicate entries for Everything, But Capitalized... but "church" and "minor orders" etc would still be common nouns AFAICT.) - -sche (discuss) 02:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Move to a collocations section in "minor orders". To one Theknightwho's points: it's not a profession ("porter" or "exorcist" could be considered a profession, but not "cleric in minor orders", since that's just a catchall term, akin to "healthcare professional"). Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:54, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It is a profession, as demonstrated by the quotes. A doctor doesn't stop being a doctor just because they become a cardiologist. Theknightwho (talk) 01:42, 22 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm inclined to delete because it does seem to be a SOP catchall descriptor, and only about one-fifth at most (historically less) of all the uses of "(whatever) in minor orders", and about 1/17th at most of the various phrases "minor orders" occurs in. It's not tightly bound, indeed the parts can be scattered around a sentence, because it's just a description (and not the title of a profession, but a description of a class of professions):
 * 2009, Joseph Bergin, Church, Society and Religious Change in France, 1580-1730, page 64:
 * Huge numbers of pre-teenage boys were administered the tonsure, the first of the &apos;minor&apos; orders, which technically made them clerics and therefore capable of holding 'simple' benefices (that is, without cure of souls).
 * Btw cleric in the minor orders with the also occurs. - -sche (discuss) 02:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete as SOP (and mention as a collocation if desired). Reviving this discussion a bit: a better question is whether in minor orders by itself merits an entry, which touched on above. I think in orders, meaning "ordained" (search e.g. "monk in orders"), probably does, since someone unfamiliar with church usage would otherwise need to either figure out that it refers to holy orders or scroll down to sense 13 of order to figure it out, and even then the definition given there isn't substitutable. Then, if in orders has an entry, I suspect it's harder to justify leaving out in minor orders since it's derivative of in orders and not just an ellipsis of "in the minor orders" as suggested above (the latter is used but is more obviously SOP). —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 00:21, 29 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete, SOP. PUC – 12:05, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete as SOP per the above. bd2412 T 18:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Deleted. To be deleted (not by me) Aril Maodo (talk) 21:19, 21 July 2023 (UTC)