Talk:dare la colpa

dare la responsabilità
Italian SOP, as pointed out in another discussion months ago. Imetsia (talk) 20:40, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Is really a synonym of  – in which case it is not really SOP, since “to give/assign (the) responsibility” is not really the same as “to blame”?  --Lambiam 12:10, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * It really is a synonym. I've updated the page at (see sense 4) to reflect this other meaning of the term. So that makes the expression SOP, right? Imetsia (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess, yeah. --Lambiam 09:28, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think they are synonyms at all. I can't find anywhere that the phrase dare la responsabilità has the meaning of dare la colpa (and I would never use that phrase with that meaning in Italian). As a native speaker I consider the usex under responsabilità (gli hanno dato la piena responsabilità per la crisi) as wrong Italian. Can you give some more evidence? Sartma (talk) 08:41, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * First, thank you for voting in some of my deletion nominations, seeing that turnout has been so low over the past few months. To get to the heart of the issue, consider that the Zingarelli gives def 3 of as "colpa." Likewise, the Devoto-Oli has def 3 as "colpa" with the example sentence "gli hanno addossato ogni responsabilità." If we use the meaning of  as "attribuire, riconoscere" (to assign, to attribute), this expression is grammatical. I also found a few real-world attestations for this phrase (I'm listing just three but more exist):, , . Lastly, as someone who is also a native Italian speaker, I see nothing wrong with the usex under . To be extra-sure, I asked some family members (also native Italian speakers) about the sentence, and it didn't sound wrong to them either. Imetsia (talk) 16:17, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I see your reasoning, but I think the question is more complex than just checking meanings of individual words in a dictionary. I've done your same experiment and asked 9 of my colleagues (all professional Italian translators and editors in the company I work for, with years of experience in the field). I've sent them the Usex sentence quoted above without saying anything to avoid influencing them, just asking "1. How does this sentence sound to you? 2. What do you understand its meaning to be?". NONE of them thought it sounded right. They all said it was strange. They gave different reasons: the verb "dare" is wrong (they suggested "attribuire"), some felt there was something wrong with the preposition (it should be "di". "per" sounds like a calque from English), it's not clear whether the meaning is that they "blamed him" for the crisis or they "gave him the crisis to take care of", or again, they thought there was something wrong with the collocation "dare la piena responsabilità" it sounds like something positive, like in "dare pieni poteri"  (to give full power) or "dare piena fiducia" (to trust fully). They couldn't point at one precise reason why this sentence sounds strange (possibly all the above reasons!) but one thing was sure: 9 people (10 with me) who write Italian professionally on a daily basis found that sentence odd. I wouldn't ignore this feedback. Sartma (talk) 15:46, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I think those are good points. I too agree with the ambiguity argument, and on closer look, "di" is indeed better than "per." It's evident a better usex could be used, maybe something like "gli hanno dato la responsabilità dell'incidente?" Or maybe you can come up with something better and replace it on the entry page. In any case, this is a deletion discussion. If it's the case that, for example, "dare" sounds immediately wrong to professional Italian translators, that's an alternative reason to delete the entry - it's just wrong Italian. It still doesn't sound awfully wrong to my ears, but no matter how you look at it, the entry should be deleted. Imetsia (talk) 17:53, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak delete with at least a usex at colpa if it's the usual translation for to blame. Ultimateria (talk) 21:51, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * RFD-deleted. Imetsia (talk) 15:57, 30 June 2021 (UTC)