Talk:dunsail

Dunsail definition, use & etymology
Fairly consistent with the citations [|citations] on the other tab of this page, my grandfather said that the term refers to any sail that is downwind of the standing yardage that usually provides most of the thrust, and is only usable during extreme tack, when the angle of attack & wind slip, expose the sail to enough air to provide additional control & marginally more thrust than is usually available in that configuration. It was usually smaller than the foresail because it was often too far forward to be (well) attached to the keel, and therefore not very strong.  The dunsail cap was a cover used to keep rats, birds, & water out of the usually furled sail (presumably to prolong its above deck storage life). His colloquial definition was "for a part which had a usually hidden or unappreciated value or use" (rather than none. A more nuanced meaning than that used in Star Trek; the writers & actors of which persistently & irksomely screw up 'damper','damping', and 'damped'). He pronounced it 'dunsel', but spelled it 'dunsail' and said that was "because it was usually furled (down on its boom) and also the most down-wind sail, and the illiterates are winning the spelling war". ;-) PS: Why is there no definition on the main page? --Wikidity (talk) 17:16, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Is it appropriate to spell this sense ? — Ungoliant (falai) 17:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

RFV discussion: December 2015–November 2016
I always thought this term was made up for the Star Trek episode it appeared in. Judging by Google Books, this seems to be the case: there are only three hits, with the only relevant one a mention of the Star Trek episode in an essay. In Google groups, there are lots of hits- but all except for one quote the same line by the same person, which is a direct quote from the episode.

Note that CFI requires that it not only must be in use, but that it must be used outside of the fictional universe. It's possible that there might be a real term behind this- but not with this spelling. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:31, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Apparently the spelling should be "dunsel", not "dunsail". According to Memory Alpha, this is the spelling used in the script for "The Ultimate Computer".  I can't say whether this is where the term originated, but it is the earliest occurrence I've found, and I don't find it in OED or Webster's Third.  It does seem to have received sufficient independent use to qualify as a word in the sense of "a part which serves no useful purpose, especially a part of a ship, or applied to a captain with little or no authority."  There are also multiple references to "dunsel caps", but I have not determined what kind of caps these are, or whether the meaning is related to the sense of "useless".  Only two of these come from books, although the phrase "dunsel cap" does occur in a number of blogs as well.  Many hits for the term (in English) seem to be misreadings of "counsel" or "damsel".


 * useless


 * 1982, Marteen Dee Graham, Silver Sundown (Dell Publishing), p. 42: "If I'm not part of the crew and earn my keep, then I'm a dunsel. And you'll not have a dunsel aboard long..."


 * 2003 T.F. Campbell, The Light in the Stones: ...from the tales of Fibinacci... (iUniverse), page 248: "The President 'Dunsel' has engaged so-called exterior terrorism, by committing two-hundred thousand son 'n' daughters trying to checkmate the settlers who sit on the ancient oil fields."


 * 2007, Mark Kadrich, Endpoint Security (Addison Wesley), p. 234: "...so one thing we need to do is to remove all the dunsel default user accounts."


 * 2011, Kevin J. Anderson, Scattered Suns (Simon and Schuster), glossary: "DUNSEL – slang term for token human commanders aboard EDF rammer ships." Also used by the same author in Of Fire and Night (also 2011).


 * 2015, Chris Mentch, As I See It: Reasons, Rhymes, and Reflections; the Spirit of a "Well-Versed" Philosophy (WestBow Press), "In the Face of Her Storm": "I struggled down through the galley. And again up to the mast.  I even checked on the dunsel, Wrapped my girl's sails down, I wrapped 'em low and I wrapped 'em fast."


 * 2015, Solitaire Parke, Flight of the Aguiva (Lulu Press), page not numbered: "For the first time in years I felt dunsel or un-needed. Ordinarily I don't do dunsel, I mean who I am says I have a purpose..."  Used again by the same author in Egg of the Amphitere (also 2015).


 * caps


 * 2011, Joani Lacy, Hollister House: The Banyan Tree Awakens, page 83: "Her long white hair was stuffed haphazardly into a dunsel cap..."


 * 2013, Thomas Berger, Reinhart in Love: A Novel (Open Road Media), pages not numbered: "In the school yard he saw his grammar-school self in dunsel cap and leather boots..." P Aculeius (talk) 14:44, 30 December 2015 (UTC)


 * According to this it is "like a ski cap with a tassel", and according to this it is a navy term for a Watch cap (wich redirects to Knit cap) so evidently a knitted cap. Spinning Spark  03:06, 31 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Created entries for dunsel (apparently created before, but deleted for lack of attestation other than in Star Trek) and dunsel cap. Suggest "dunsail" be indicated as a misspelling for "dunsel", or converted into a redirect there.  P Aculeius (talk) 13:51, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Resolved: converted into an alternative form for, and references moved to the latter entry as quotations. — SMUconlaw (talk) 07:39, 15 November 2016 (UTC)