Talk:forlorn hope

"Verlopen hoop" means "lost hope" see http://translate.google.com/#nl|en|verloren%20hoop

The Dutch translation of lost "troop" is "verloren troep". SpeakFree 18:56, 22 May 2011 (UTC)


 * No, the Dutch term meant a ‘lost troop’ (although hoop: can mean ‘hope’, here it means ‘group of men’, cognate with English ). < class="latinx" >Ƿidsiþ 19:02, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's way too arguable that 'forlorn hope' stems from Dutch. If it where, why can't we find it in use in Dutch language literature predating the first use in the etymology dictionary by Kilian? The first mentioning (supposedly) is from 1598 by Kilian. Can't tell, since I have no access to the book. Cornelis Kilian was a learned man for sure, but not a Dutch linguist, since there was no such study at the time. And at universities at that time students where taught in the Latin language. The elite spoke either German, French or Latin. The Dutch language was mostly for the common man. As far as I can tell, all authors since who mention forlorn hope, have copied the expression without seriously challenging it's origins by finding evidence. Since militairy history was well documented in Dutch history, why is there no mentioning of it? Or in documents like letters? The prominent Meertens Institute of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences mentions it as 'uncertain'. There should at the least be a mention in Wiktionary and Wikipedia that the phrase is of 'uncertain' origins. --OSeveno (talk) 09:27, 25 May 2020 (UTC)