Talk:holbytla

RFV discussion: October 2011
'Middle Earth'? It seems more like Old English, but is that verifiable? —CodeCat 23:44, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There's an Old English translation of the Hobbit?? Where?? Mglovesfun (talk) 10:19, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Fictional word - I can't quite read the ang.wikipedia article. SemperBlotto 10:30, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Basically "The Hobbit is a book by J.R.R. Tolkien", it doesn't say that such a creature would be called a 'holbytla'. As a matter of interest, if the word is attested in Old English but only in the context of a fictional universe, does it meet CFI or not? Mglovesfun (talk) 10:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This may well sum if up, "Tolkien says that he translates this kûd-dûkan term into the invented word holbytla from which hobbit might just have been derived if holbytla had ever existed in the ancient language (hol-bytla is a made-up Old English compound meaning "hole-dweller")". (The Origins of Tolkien's Middle-earth For Dummies). Mglovesfun (talk) 12:14, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Something coined in modern times can't be Old English, can it? Has this word been used or only mentioned? Equinox ◑ 13:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it's never been used. JRRT came up with it as a pseudo-etymology of ‘hobbit’. It's not real. < class="latinx" >Ƿidsiþ 13:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @Equinox that's a bit controversial as we allow Modern Latin even though Latin is a dead language. It's hypothetically possible to write in Old English and coin new words. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This touches upon the serious issue of attestation for words used only in certain fictional universes. What is the rule of thumb?  I dimly recall reading someone else saying that usage in at least three fictional universes was required (or was that just "preferred"?).  This issue is important for me to better understand in order to handle all the Japanese magic- and fantasy-related terms that have cropped up. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If this is a translation of "hobbit" into Old English, then it's no longer fictional, since "hobbit" is used as a nickname for H. floresiensis . Or does that not count? (though the entry at hobbit is suspiciously missing this widely used usage of "hobbit") 70.24.251.158 09:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That'd not count, as this is a translation of the other sense of hobbit into ang. &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 18:06, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

(Re: Latin, dead language doesn't mean unused language.)

More info conveniently assembled here. *holbytla is not Old English, it's Tolkien's speculative OE-like reconstruction, created for flavour in his fiction and not as part of any academic linguistics work. If we find three independent citations in modern English, then it is English for our purposes. I don't imagine it's likely to be attested in Old English, since that language is not much used to write durably-archived sources these days. —Michael Z. 2011-12-15 19:13 z