Talk:if that

if that
This seems to me to be a standard, transparent English ellipsis. It would belong only in a phrasebook. DCDuring TALK 14:28, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

No OneLook reference has it. DCDuring TALK 14:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete Inclined towards deletion, but am making my comment less bold because of subsequent discussion. Seems similar to if necessary and if desired in terms of transparency. Equinox ◑ 14:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, it was added following a discussion in the Tea room. So there are users who might find it useful. SemperBlotto 14:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess we need to have operational criteria for including phrasebook entries. DCDuring TALK 14:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the user in the Tea Room speculated that we lacked a meaning of if; we could handle this by including "if that" as a usage example of the relevant sense of if. Notably, the responders to the stackexchange discussion the user linked to in the TR also said "‘if that’ is just ‘if’ + ‘that’ + (ellipsis)". - -sche (discuss) 15:02, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see which definition of if: or of that: means anything like "even less". SemperBlotto 15:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it is close to sense 6 of "if", i.e. "even if". "Your car's worth less than $100, if that" means something like "even if the upper limit is as high as $100, which I dispute". Then again, "not worth $100, if that" is rather odd because it would appear to mean "not worth $100 even if it is worth $100". This is making my head feel funny. Equinox ◑ 15:14, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * even: is a focusing modifier the exact position of which makes a great deal of difference. CGEL has the following example, "* You would * have * enjoyed * dancing * tonight *." The asterisks indicate possible positions for "even". Only positions 2 and 3 yield the same meaning. DCDuring TALK 15:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What about "You, even, would have enjoyed dancing tonight", with (I think) the same meaning as "Even you..."; or "You even would have...", with (I think) the same meaning as "You would even have..."? &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 15:58, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yup. Thanks. DCDuring TALK 16:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * [e/c] I think it usually parses as "if the preceding is true", as in "Full color? It's four-color, if that". But sometimes that doesn't work, as in "without really giving to most of them more than a smattering, if even that", where if even that must mean either "if even a smattering" or "if giving to most of them a smattering", neither of which is obvious at all from the parts if and that. But I'm very not convinced that that nonobviousness is a lexical property of if that rather than a standard way of building sentences in English. &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The existence of if even that (as in the quotation above) is telling, also. I'm not sure what it's telling, though. &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about this, but I don't think it usually (ever?) parses as "if the preceding is true"; I think the "that" prefers (requires?) a narrower antecedent than that. To me, at least, something like "What do you mean, I love it? I just barely put up with it — if that!" sounds awkward, because the verb phrase "just barely put up with it" isn't a great antecedent for "that", whereas "What do you mean, my love for it? I am brimming with indifference about it — if that!" sounds . . . well, also awkward, but for different reasons. :-P  —Ruakh TALK 15:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble analyzing this as sum of parts. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:53, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * (@Ruakh) How would you define it if it's kept? &#x200b;—msh210℠ (talk) 17:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't it an ellipsis of if it is that much/many? — Pingkudimmi 17:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I think so. To me it seems obvious how such an expression could be expanded. I don't think ellipses are intuitive to many non-native speakers. OTOH I don't think that lack of intuitiveness provides a reasonable basis for inclusion, except incidentally as part of phrases in a phrasebook.
 * It (the expression "if that") is a simple anaphora. The referent of that: is to be found usually in a preceding (relative to "that") clause, usually that (clause) immediately preceding (the use of "that") or the one before (the clause immediately preceding the use of "that").
 * The sense of if: is defined in MWOnline as "and perhaps not even". Not that this definition is substitutable with a number of possible collocates following "if", such as "then", "so", "there". A slightly different wording, omitting "even", is required before "anyone" and "anything". DCDuring TALK  18:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. < class="latinx" >Ƿidsiþ 07:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. It is not transparent at least for non-native speakers, since that is an adjective as in that much, not a pronoun. You can quite freely insert if any, if necessary, and if possible, which are simple ellipses, but can you put if that before the noun it modifies? — T AKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

kept -- Liliana • 17:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

if that much
Is if that much a variant? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:47, 15 March 2020 (UTC)