Talk:jemanden vom rechten Weg abbringen

RFD discussion: December 2020
There are many pages for idioms with a placeholder term as jemanden, etwas to indicate transitivity. I have already moved some of them to jemanden-less page titles and tagged the redirects to be speedy-deleted. But an IP wants to keep them. Do we really want those redirects? We don't have jemanden sehen, jemanden grüßen, etwas schlagen. The information regarding governance can be given in labels and usage notes. --Akletos (talk) 06:06, 24 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Abstain. Having jemanden there could be useful for a beginning German learner. However, vom rechten Weg abbringen gets it right on its own. I'd need a bit more convincing from the people who want to keep it. &mdash; Dentonius 11:57, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 * We don't have jemanden sehen, etc. indeed, but I don't think that's a good comparison. No one would look for an entry under that title, and no dictionary does that, so there's no reason for us to do it either.
 * With multiword verb phrases, however, some people do expect to have a placeholder in the title, probably because in some cases, omitting it leads to awkward results. Take, for example: would you suggest moving it to ?
 * So now you have cases where the placeholder is omitted, other cases where it's there. This is likely to cause confusion, especially for newcomers who may not know what the logic behind it is (we're not consistent anyway), and who don't necessarily check that an entry already exists under another title.
 * For example, imagine someone decides to draw up a list from de:Kategorie:Redewendung (Deutsch) to create entries here. If you delete redirects, de:jemanden vom rechten Weg abbringen will appear as a red link here, and that person, not knowing that we already have an entry at vom rechten Weg abbringen, might decide to create a new one.
 * So yes, I think we should keep those redirects. They don't harm, and they can help us avoid duplicates. 2A02:2788:A4:205:4D65:3CFF:247C:BFF9 12:21, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Good enough for me, IP editor. I think we should keep the complete expression in whatever form (entry or redirect). I hope to see you participating around here more often. &mdash; Dentonius 12:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. It is fine when such variants of idiomatic phrases redirect to the main entry. See also Acceptable uses and WT:CFI. --Lambiam 15:49, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm convinced, thanks to all of you for your input; let's keep them as redirects if they do no harm. (And besides, there are the same (or even bigger) inconsistencies in de-wt, so if we want interwiki-links we need both kinds of page titles.) If someone wants to re-add the ones already deleted have a look at my contributions on Dec 22. I'll move the remaining phrases with indef pronouns in the next couple of weeks, leaving redirects.
 * Of course, sich bei jemandem lieb Kind machen would be moved to sich lieb Kind machen, again with an lb-template explaining the preferred preposition (I still believe that we need a governance template).--Akletos (talk) 08:45, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 * We do have (see 🇨🇬, for example), but it's not enough for languages with declensions, because you cannot document which case is needed.,  and  might be of use, but they're not widely used and I find them messy. All three are stuck in development hell, unfortunately. This is a longstanding issue. PUC – 11:01, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

, does that mean you formally withdraw your RFD? &mdash; Dentonius 10:49, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Formally? Just tell me the sacred formula or hand me the official document to fill in, and I'll do whatever is required. --Akletos (talk) 21:45, 26 December 2020 (UTC)


 * , sorry, wrong choice of word. If you, as the nominator, simply say that you withdraw this RFD, you can help clear the backlog and reduce the time for this request to be processed. &mdash; 79.206.53.58 22:19, 26 December 2020 (UTC) (Dentonius)


 * Closed as effectively retracted by nominator. —Μετάknowledge discuss/deeds 07:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)