Talk:keskuus

RFD discussion: January 2021–March 2022
We should not be reconstructing non-existent noun forms for a word that is only used in the adverbial cases. &mdash; surjection &lang; &rang; 16:15, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * An old sin from 2008. I believe somebody asked on one of the requests pages what is "keskuus". I probably thought this is the type of question another learner of Finnish might potentially ask and it should be explained. At that time there was a Brasilian learner who asked hundreds of questions. I agree it looks weird now. I propose we make it a redirect to keskuudessa.
 * I don't think a redirect is a good idea either, since I suspect most people won't be looking for keskuus specifically. I'd suggest it to be deleted instead, but I also added another old meaning that may be worth keeping, as it seems to be attestable. &mdash; surjection &lang; &rang; 17:46, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I have experience of one guy looking for it. I find it quite natural that a learner of Finnish might do so. "Keskuudessa" looks perfectly like it could be the inessive singular form of "keskuus". We are making Wiktionary for real people's needs and if I'm not completely amiss, one inclusion criteria is that the entry title is something that people might be looking for. Learners are an important audience for us. I have heard from my son's foreign friends who study Finnish in the University of Helsinki that they find Wiktionary one of the best existing learning tools for Finnish. A redirect page does not disturb anyone and it does not add empty content to the various lists we have, such as the list of Finnish nouns. Moreover, we probably have entries which nobody but its creator has seen. Even if only one person would take a peek it is one better than zero. I admit creating it in its original form was not very clever but I was quite inexperienced as Wiktionarian back in 2008.--Hekaheka (talk) 20:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In fact, I already changed "keskuus" to a redirect page. I also removed noun sections from "keskuudessa", "keskuudesta" and "keskuuteen". --Hekaheka (talk) 20:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What about the archaic meaning "relation, relationship" that I added? BGC finds quite a few uses for that. Also, WT:REDIR seems to imply that (mainspace) redirects are very much discouraged. &mdash; surjection &lang; &rang; 20:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know of this archaic sense. I could not find any actual usage which of course proves nothing. It seems to first appear in Ruotsalais-suomalainen sanakirja. SKST 16. Helsinki from 1853. After that is listed in a couple of other dictionaries but then the term disappears. This hints that the word may have been just proposed by Europaeus. Here's an excerpt from the said dictionary:
 * Umgängesspråk, n. seurallinen l. keskuudellinen puhe-tapa, keskuus-puhe (-een), seurakieli
 * Umgängessätt, n. keskuus- l. seura-tapa, keskuuden l. kanssa-käymisen tapa, kanssakäymis-tapa
 * Umgängesvän, m. seura-ystäwä, keskuus-ystäwä, seura- l. keskuus-kumppani
 * Europaeus seems to have meant the word as synonym to the current terms, or  and thus the English translation might rather be "interaction" or "communication" than "relationship". I don't object to readding it but then it should be necessary to write a usage note that says that the modern usage of the word is to be found under ,  and . --Hekaheka (talk) 00:59, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I was able to find "kansainväliset keskuudet" on BGC, although I'm not sure now if I could find three independent cites, so maybe it is better to just not add it if it's not attestable after all. I still personally object to maintaining a redirect, however. &mdash; surjection &lang; &rang; 09:59, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The Dictionary of Finnish Dialects shows that keskuus as a general noun 'interaction, rapport' is attested from a handful of eastern dialects (also a combining form keskuus- 'common, inter-' in a few compounds) I'm also not optimistic on if this can be attested by Wiktionary standards however. --Tropylium (talk) 18:57, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * RFD-resolved. Thadh (talk) 00:30, 18 March 2022 (UTC)