Talk:make a fool of oneself

make a fool of oneself
The English idiom (if it really is an idiom) is to make a fool of. My vote is to move to make a fool of, keeping redirect. There is an Italian translation. DCDuring TALK 17:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Unsure, when the redirect object is oneself I think it changes the meaning. I made a fool of my father/I made a fool of myself. The first suggests intentional, the second suggests unintentional. So we should keep both, I think, but I'm not all that sure. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There is nothing that prevents one or the other from being either unintentional of intentional, whatever the relative likelihoods. We are so far removed from properly presenting sophisticated implicature that it doesn't seem a worthwhile consideration for the next year or two. But I would love to see the difference in wording of the two entries with all the implicature presented. Implicature is often context-driven, isn't it, not really lexical. DCDuring TALK 20:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * To clarify, intention is not an explicit part of the definitions. And the implications are only probabilistic, not logical. DCDuring TALK 20:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Move per nom. Is make a fool out of synonymous? &#x200b;— msh210 ℠ 16:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs shows out: as optional and offers make a monkey of (with optional out) as a synonym. DCDuring TALK 18:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Moved. Kept the redirect. &#x200b;—msh210℠ 19:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)