Talk:overseas Chinese

Links
"Overseas Chinese" is well established in English-language Chinese government and media sources, but that shouldn't count against it. Reputed publishers like Palgrave and Sage use it too: http://www.insideoutchina.com/2008/05/are-overseas-chinese-more-patriotic.html ; http://ann.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/321/1/136 http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/lib/overseas-chinese/eng.htm ; http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/malcolmmoore/100005869/overseas-chinese-become-targets/ ; http://www.palgrave.com/products/title.aspx?PID=274011 http://www.tokyofoundation.org/en/series/sylff/the-overseas-chinese-in-tonga ; http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/qwgz/ ; http://www.roc-taiwan.org/ct.asp?xItem=99322&ctNode=2240&mp=1 ; http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-02/21/content_9479823.htm ;http://www.miamidragon.com/moca.html ; http://overseaschineseschool.com/ ; http://www.overseaschineseconfederation.org/main/index.php ; http://www.ocya.org/ ; http://www.ocpaweb.org/new/ http://www.ocnetwork.org/. Also, if you go to Worldcat (or Library of Congress, etc) there are many books with the title: Lords of the Rim : the invisible empire of the overseas Chinese by Sterling Seagrave ;  The overseas Chinese. by Lois Mitchison ; The PRC's overseas Chinese policy by Shaio H Zerba, Naval Postgraduate School (U.S.);  New Asian emperors : the business strategies of the overseas Chinese by George T Haley.--达伟 10:50, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * For reference: Google hits: overseas Chinese 91.106.31.155 12:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Capitalization
I agree, capitalization is not standard usage.--达伟 11:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

New attestation

 * The phenomenon of ethnic business networks is of course not new, but it’s far more widespread than most people realize (almost every African nation has an indigenous group known as the entrepreneurs and traders –the Hausa in Nigeria, Gurage in Ethiopia, Serahule in the Gambia, etc.) And it’s too well known to even bother mentioning the famous merchant diasporas like the Jews, the Lebanese, East African Indians, overseas Chinese in SE Asia, and so on. 

By Dr. William Easterly on the The Aid Watch blog, a project of New York University's Development Research Institute (DRI). Moreover, I believe it's highly telling that in the midst of this discussion of many immigrant groups the only use of the word "overseas" is in the phrase "overseas Chinese"--达伟 09:39, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

overseas Chinese
I can't decide if this is SoP or not. There is a wikipedia page for it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be included here. I mean, we don't include overseas Italians, immigrated Greeks, etc. I myself haven't really heard it used as a kind of special term - it just looks like brown leaf to me. ---&gt; Tooironic 23:22, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh delete, surely it's just overseas + Chinese. See also our debates on Chinese born American et al. that all got deleted. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:14, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If we include such words as African American, then why not this word? And I would argue that unlike overseas Italian, immigrated Greeks, or even Russian emigré, "overseas Chinese" (华侨) has a substantial currency far in the English language beyond its peers --达伟 16:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * African American is an unfit comparison. As for the "substantial currency", add it to the entry then we can all judge for ourselves. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not convinced this "currency" exists in the English language, despite there being a Chinese word for it (华侨). If I could see some cites though I might be more convinced. ---&gt; Tooironic 22:50, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Please understand I'm sincere and in good faith, and not simply trying to dump a bunch of links, but all of these attest to use. (Moved links and my arguments to the talk page for overseas Chinese)--hope that helps!--达伟 10:47, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, nobody's denying it's well attested, just like a black dog or a brown leaf. I asked above for the "currency" to be added to the entry. We want to see a meaning other than the most obvious. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to play coy, but could you give us an example of what kind of attestation you're suggesting--is there a specific Wiktionary policy page I could look at? For example, would the cites from a major newspaper (The Telegraph), major publishers (Palgrave and others), and both the PRC ("China") and ROC ("Taiwan") governments in their English language materials? Thanks!--达伟 00:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


 * For me the problem is that it means "Chinese resident overseas", not merely Chinese on vacation. Polarpanda 01:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct. It means a member of the Chinese expatriate community or Chinese emigré. It is analogical to a specific Chinese language term describing this community (华侨, see Huaqiao), which incidentally is also the root of a similar term describing the Korean expatriate community.--达伟 12:42, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * True. Keep. bd2412 T 02:51, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This entry is English, not Mandarin. How would overseas French, Germans, Italians or Japanese be more sum of parts than this? Mglovesfun (talk) 12:58, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Because Overseas Chinese has a special meaning equivalent to Huaqiao. And because it is  specialized, so it should be capitalized.  91.104.15.16 15:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Citing the Chinese term (华侨) does not count as evidence that it should be kept. There are plenty of Chinese-translated English terms which fail Wiktionary's inclusion criteria, e.g. mainland China. ---&gt; Tooironic 21:38, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It just said that "Overseas Chinese has a special meaning". Is there evidence show that mainland China fail Wiktionary's inclusion criteria?  91.106.30.114 01:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record, I'm not particularly for or against adding mainland China. Why? Because it has a meaning beyond its parts (i.e. it, usually, excludes Hong Kong). This is not obvious from its parts. As for overseas Chinese, however, I don't see how that has any extended meaning. (Yes, it usually means a Chinese resident overseas, but I would argue that that is a widespread assumption rather than an inherent part of the term itself). ---&gt; Tooironic 06:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I though our criteria is whether something was attested. I tried to point out lots of book titles via Worldcat, lots of websites, and significant use by PRC and ROC governments. If you did an equivalent search, "overseas Italian" or "overseas Germans" simply don't have the same attestation--there is no parallel concept in English or German for "overseas German" (etc.): even if the words can be paired, the concept doesn't exist as it does in English or Chinese for "overseas Chinese."--达伟 08:00, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody's disputing that you can find the words overseas and Chinese next to each other, similar to brown leaf, red hat (etc.) it's a question of idiomatic meaning beyong overseas + Chinese. You claim there is such a meaning, but you haven't added it to the entry. Why? You're in danger of winning the vote, but losing the argument. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I added some examples. I wasn't being coy, but I still haven't been pointed to a good example of what kind of attestations I should be providing. The examples I added just now may not be the best and I can search for others if you don't feel these are sufficient. Thanks for your patience. But I do feel strongly that if you read the Wikipedia article w:overseas Chinese, and notice the citations provided there, you will recognize that this is idiomatic, no less than African American, Mafia, w:Norwegian and Swedish Travellers (i.e. "Roma" or "Gypsies") or Burakumin or w:Anglo-Indian or w:White Rajah (just trying to find examples of ethnic-related articles).--达伟 11:40, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. It is a word like Huaqiao. --Anatoli 23:58, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Welll attestations that show it has some idiomatic meaning. If anything your citations have made me change for delete to strong delete. Note that overseas British gets 804 Google Book hits, and I imagine they're all sum of parts too. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you skimmed or looked at the Wikipedia overseas Chinese article?--达伟 22:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, I placed another attestation on the talk page; because it's from a blog I didn't know if you would consider it appropriate but I think it's strong evidence (written by an economics professor).--达伟 09:36, 27 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering the above discussion I'm also convinced that we should delete this entry. It simply does not have a meaning beyond its parts. ---&gt; Tooironic 03:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I hope you understand where I'm coming from when I ask this question, but do those who have actually read the oversease Chinese Wikipedia article actually feel it has no meaning beyond the sum of its parts, i.e. a specific concept of an ethnic Chinese community united by certain notions of culture and belonging? In your opinion would ever be conceivable that it could have a meaning beyond the sum of its parts, or is this debate simply unwinnable? If that's the case, OK...but otherwise, there's only been a handful of people who have responded on this entry, and the consensus doesn't seem to be overwhelmingly no...Shouldn't we get a little more input first?--达伟 07:26, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You've made the point yourself. We're not Wikipedia, we define words, terms and idioms. Important concepts are for Wikipedia. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:32, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * What is wrong with keeping some concepts? It's synonym - Huaqiao is a word too and is used in English but it's harder to pronounce for some and hard to read for others not familiar with pinyin or the Chinese phonology, so overseas Chinese is used. Carl, the word is normally translated as a single word into Chinese, why do you wish to delete it? The Russian word "хуацяо" from Chinese 華僑 / 华侨 (Huáqiáo) penetrated Russian a long time ago and was always used in this form. --Anatoli 06:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * An interesting book on the topic is "Dictionary of the political thought of the People's Republic of China". --Anatoli 06:55, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Please keep overseas Chinese and add Huaqiao to English (it's Mandarin only at the moment). --Anatoli 06:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Kept inspite of CFI IMO. Every few months we get an entry that clearly fails CFI but passes a vote. This (purely in my own opinion) is why voting is dangerous - the majority is wrong sometimes! Mglovesfun (talk) 10:50, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

outland Germans
Renominating based on Talk:overseas Chinese. In my opinion, in the single worst outcome of an RFD debate that I've seen. Can be attested in parallel forms such as overseas Irish - heck overseas Catholics and overseas Muslims are also attested. It's not even limited to nationalities! Mglovesfun (talk) 12:36, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, regarding it being a translation or equivalent of "华侨": compare "overseas Germans" / "Germans abroad", and especially "outland Germans", the most direct calque of "Auslandsdeutsche". - -sche (discuss) 18:50, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * In fact, I am considering adding outland Germans (which I just created) to this RFD. It is distinguished from "overseas Chinese", however, in that it uses a sense of "outland" only used (AFAICT) in two other places, both of which are also calques: a calque of a Danish phrase, and calques of 华侨! "Overseas Chinese", on the other hand, uses a sense of "overseas" that can be used with every other nationality/ethnicity, and even, like Mglovesfun points out, with religions. I just added the sense to [[overseas]]. - -sche (discuss) 20:50, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, I asked my wife (who is overseas Chinese) and she just shrugged and said "It's two words; putting it together doesn't make a new word". bd2412 T 19:03, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of outland Germans, but looking up outland it seems to be "foreign, from abroad" and Germans of course means more than one German, so it's SOP and easily decodable from its parts (as I've just decoded it). Mglovesfun (talk) 11:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Technically (and importantly), it's not "foreign, from abroad", but rather "native (not foreign) but living abroad". But note that sense of "outland" is (AFAICT) only used in three unrelated calques, thus I ask if we should have a sense of "outland", or only the three complete calques. - -sche (discuss) 23:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * "Outland" would itself be more of a calque (of German ) than natural-sounding English. Isn't  the term generally used for such phrases?  -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 23:21, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I say we keep outland Germans regardless of the presence or absence of outland, because it was clearly not formed as SOP outland+Germans, but as a calque of Auslandsdeutsche. - -sche (discuss) 20:30, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Kept. [[overseas Chinese]] was untagged by . — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)