Talk:pomelo

Original meaning
You wrote in your edit comment: pomelo predates grapefruit (1696 vs 1750), so this can't be "originally". we have grapefruit covered as sense 3, so what's missing? I don't understand what you mean. The word "pomelo" may predate the word "grapefruit", but apparently it meant what we usually call a grapefruit, not Citrus maxima.

I don't like what we have as sense 3, namely "(by extension, loosely) The family of hybrids derived from this tree, particularly the grapefruit." The reason it means grapefruit is not by extension. It's simply that that was the original meaning of "pomelo". And as far as I know, there are no hybrids other than grapefruit.

Please ping.

Eric Kvaalen (talk) 18:52, 16 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It's confusing. I was referring to pomelo the plant, not the word. The way I understand it is that pomelo is the "original" plant (and word). Cross-fertilization with the Jamaican sweet orange yielded the grapefruit. Initially they were believed to be the same plant so pomelo was used for both. It was only shown much later that grapefruit is a distinct plant, and that's probably when grapefruit emerged (early 19th c). Putting the grapefruit sense first with "originally" is confusing, because they are different fruits. Wikipedia has a detailed list of pomelo descendants, the grapefruit is just one of many. – Jberkel 22:05, 16 February 2019 (UTC)


 * You may be right, though I would like to know what your source of information is saying that the word "pomelo" was applied to Citrus maxima before 1750. According to this reference from the Grapefruit article, it was called "shaddock", at least in the Caribbean. But still, the word "pomelo" is not applied to hybrids other than grapefruit! So I still don't like what is written for sense #3. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 06:51, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * So you're basically claiming that "pomelo" was first (and exclusively) applied to grapefruits, and then later extended to mean "shaddock"? – Jberkel 08:03, 17 February 2019 (UTC)


 * That's what I think, but I'm not sure. At least in English. By the way, in French "pomelo" is often used to mean grapefruit, although there is some confusion about which term to use for which. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It's very unlikely. Grapefruits were first documented in 1750 (then just called 'shaddock' or 'forbidden fruit'). The word "pomelo" is first attested over a hundred years later (1858, according to Online Etymology Dictionary). I haven't found any evidence that it was initially exclusively used in the sense "grapefruit". – Jberkel 09:02, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Another hybrid dominated by pomelo DNA (hybridized with Citrus medica (citron) is the, lime being a term applied to many citrus hybrids, the fruit of which is green when ripe. Wikicommons has a nice ternary diagram placing various citrus hybrids of C. reticulata , C. maxima (pomelo), and C. medica (citron). Judging from the diagram, no produce-store fruit is especially closely related to either pomelo or citron.
 * But we are interested in usage. I have RfVed the 3rd sense of pomelo, in hopes of finding evidence of what hybrid fruit is called pomelo. DCDuring (talk) 13:45, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I can find various speculative etymologies (some suggesting origin in a south Indian language) and alternative spellings. I am not sure that we can rely on Online Etymology Dictionary, however good a source it usually is.
 * See પપનસ (Gujarati) for something that might be a source (or might be an alteration of pomelo or pamplemousse. DCDuring (talk) 14:21, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I've requested translations in a few south Indian languages. It might be better to have requested them in the "old" languages, though such names may be hard to find attested.
 * But doesn't it seem that the route is from some south Indian language to French/Dutch pamplemousse, then to English, influenced by pome and melon. The late attestation of pomelo makes it seem that the word may have been selected for marketing reasons. DCDuring (talk) 14:48, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The Century definition is instructive:
 * "A variety of the shaddock, smaller than the shaddock proper, but much larger than an orange; the grapefruit. Also called forbidden-fruit. Compare pompelmous."
 * Apparently shaddock (after one Captain Shaddock) was the common English name c. 1900. DCDuring (talk) 15:02, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

If the word "pomelo" is first attested in 1858, then that shows that it was not used for the shaddock during the 200 years or so that the shaddock was known to English speakers. And the Century entry cited above by seems to confirm what I'm saying, that "pomelo" was originally used for the grapefruit.

DCDuring, it's quite sure that the word "pomelo" was used for the grapefruit. That doesn't need verification. But I don't think there's any reason to think it was applied to other hybrids of the shaddock. Which is why I did the edit which started this whole discussion.

By the way, I looked at your user page. Why doesn't "bad" rhyme with "had" for you?? Eric Kvaalen (talk) 08:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I found an interesting cite Special:Diff/51494072/51568398 regarding pomelo vs grapefruit. Maybe "grapefruit" got its strict (Citrus paradisi) sense later and was initially just a synonym/marketing term for pomelos in general. On the same page I found a mention of a "red-fleshed variety of the pomelo", which could be what we now mean by "grapefruit". – Jberkel 11:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I can report the fact, but not provide IPA. For me lad and had rhyme with each other, as do ad/add and bad, but the two a sounds don't quite rhyme with each other. DCDuring (talk) 13:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * One wonders why, if shaddock was already established, there was a need for a new term for exactly the same thing. I would therefore hypothesize that there was something different about the fruit. Perhaps the difference was as slight as the difference between a mandarin and a tangerine, ie, place of origin or shipment (China/Asia vs. Morocco). DCDuring (talk) 13:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Somewhere it was suggested that pomelo and grapefruit are just non-local names for shaddock. Either that or, as the other definitions suggest, the new name was necessary to distinguish newer varieties from plain old shaddocks. If pomelo then meant exactly what we have grapefruit defined as currently (Citrus paradisi) is another matter. – Jberkel 19:54, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Wiki Commons has botanical drawings for species and . It might be possible to make inferences from those. There is a book: Citrus: A History (2008). Also a multivolume work The Citrus Industry, of which volume 1 is subtitled History, World Distribtion, Botany and Varieties. The botanical drawings seem like a good bet, as they are mostly from 18th and 19th century. DCDuring (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Sorry to have been absent so long -- I didn't see the alerts. First, just a little question to DCDuring: Is the difference between your pronunciation of bad and of lad the same as described at Pronunciation of English ⟨a⟩? (Supposedly it's an Australian or English thing.)

Very interesting quote, Jberkel, about how we shouldn't use the term "grapefruit"! Which just goes to show that the word pomelo was the original term for grapefruit. As for the "red-fleshed variety", I don't think that would mean all grapefruit. Grapefruit can have yellowish flesh or pink flesh.

So what do we do with our article? As I have said, I don't agree with what we have at present for sense 3. And the Century entry seems to confirm the version I did, saying that "pomelo" originally meant the grapefruit.

Eric Kvaalen (talk) 06:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think WP needs an article on my idiolect. For me it isn't just a matter of length. In lad I don't think I have any diphthong at all, even when lengthening the vowel for emphasis. Predicate bad (but not usually attributive bad) has a clear diphthongish sound to my ears. All to be taken with salt as I have only been listening to such details of speech over the last ten years, which coincides with my tinnitus.
 * I don't know what to do about our definitions. I'd be inclined to imitate other dictionaries for the definition itself and add a usage note about changes rather than have separate definitions. If we can find scholarly support for specific different definitions, preferably with multiple citations, we might take a chance on more. DCDuring (talk) 14:52, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Another interesting quote:
 * “When this new fruit was adopted into cultivation and the name grapefruit came into general circulation, American horticulturists viewed that title as so inappropriate that they endeavored to have it dropped in favor of "pomelo". However, it was difficult to avoid confusion with the pummelo, and the name grapefruit prevailed“ (source)
 * This suggests that for a short period of time, the grapefruit was called "pomelo" (by some horticulturists), but the name never caught on. Why would they use the same name for something obviously new and different? Or was the distinction between pummelo-pomelo? The article also mentions that pomelos were never commercially grown, the grapefruit was the first successful pomelo-like fruit. – Jberkel 23:20, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Entstehung_der_Pomelo.png Just found this interesting diagrom on Pomelo, which shows the various crossings (and re-crossings). Still confusing, since Pampelmuse = pomelo. – Jberkel 16:35, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

RFV discussion: March 2019
Rfv-sense: 3 "grapefruit" etc.

It is not easy to tell what writers were referring to when using the word pomelo. Part of the problem is that modern produce-store fruits, except mandarin oranges, are all hybrids, somewhat distant from any single wild species. Further, the citruses hybridize in the wild as well. DCDuring (talk) 15:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * It does not help to reduce the confusion that the grapefruit (C. ×paradisi) is commonly called pomelo in Afrikaans, Basque and French (like here). --Lambiam 18:34, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * There could be books on citrus fruits and their names. I think there actually are two. DCDuring (talk) 20:12, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * This might be a dated and uncommon U.S. and Caribbean usage.       The phrasing is frequently unclear but in these cases if "pomelo or grapefruit" appears they seem synonyms, but sometimes the scientific name given is Citrus grandis or Citrus trifoliata rather than Citrus (×) paradisi. The rare results from Commonwealth locations tend to be mentions.  ←₰-→  Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  10:32, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree that the usage is dated or historical and principally US. The numerous taxonomic synonyms and the natural and man-made hybridization only make it harder to determine what the referents are. DCDuring (talk) 09:45, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 21:19, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I did not see the "RFV", and I still do not agree with the present definition #3. The word was used for what we now call grapefruit, not for other hybrids. And I don't think it's just "US, Caribbean". Look at the "Century" definition mentioned above: "A variety of the shaddock, smaller than the shaddock proper, but much larger than an orange; the grapefruit. Also called forbidden-fruit. Compare pompelmous." I have asked a friend of mine to send me what the Oxford English Dictionary says, but he never gets around to it! Eric Kvaalen (talk) 06:57, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
 * — I think we need more clarity on the suggestion forwarded above by Jberkel that the term “grapefruit” may initially have been just a synonym for ”pomelo” in a broad sense and have gotten its strict Citrus paradisi sense only later. In this connection the Century definition of grapefruit is of interest:
 * (n) grapefruit The pomelo, a smaller variety of the shaddock, Citrus decumana: so called in the markets of the northern cities of the United States, probably from its grape-like flavor. It is now successfully cultivated in Florida. See pomelo, shaddock.
 * (The 1893 edition has Citrus Aurantium decumana.) The wording is slightly ambiguous. Is it to be read as: The pomelo (a smaller variety of the shaddock aka Citrus decumana), or as: The pomelo (a smaller variety of the shaddock), aka Citrus decumana ? On first reading, I took it to be the latter. However, the Century Dictionary also defines “shaddock” as Citrus decumana. On Wikipedia,  redirects to – the text of which does not contain the term “Citrus decumana”, but Wikispecies redirects to Citrus maxima, aka Aurantium decumana, aka (English vernacular names) “pomelo, pummelo, pommelo, Chinese grapefruit, jabong, lusho fruit, pompelmous, Papanas, shaddock”.  --Lambiam 09:39, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
 * For the current taxonomic names of all the taxonomic names used in this discussion, see the following from the not-quite-definitive source on taxonomic plant names (vernacular names from other sources, esp. ):
 * - accepted name - vernacular: pomelo, shaddock
 * (syn. of Citrus maxima)
 * (syn. of Citrus maxima)
 * (syn. of Citrus maxima)
 * - accepted name, but often Citrus ×paradisi (Citrus sinensis × Citrus maxima) and sometimes Citrus aurantium Grapefruit Group - vernacular: grapefruit
 * - accepted name (but syn. of Poncirus trifoliata per GRIN et al.) - vernacular: trifoliate orange, Japanese/Chinese bitter orange (enwikt def differs)
 * I throw my hands up when it comes to historical vernacular names: The taxonomic referents are not stable; the drawings are imperfect (faded colors, etc); photography was black and white and not common; geographic variation was significant; hybridization, natural and manmade, was common. Also many UK writers have been influenced by Continental names. DCDuring (talk) 15:49, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You are quite correct that pomelo is often glossed Citrus paradisi, often equated in the same sources with Citrus maxima var. uvacarpa. If you want to narrow that definition down to grapefruit, be my guest. As for the area labels, I do object to removing them from definition 3. The OED (2nd ed.) restricts sense 1 to the East Indies, which by the way doesn't seem entirely correct because this meaning also seems to be used in Hawaii and perhaps the American South West(?), and states that sense 3 applies "in America", which may cover the Caribbean as well. If you want the labels to cover a larger area there should be evidence of wider usage. I doubt that Google Books is going to be useful for that, one would likely need a newspaper or magazine corpus.
 * In my view the last three links (currently links 5, 6, 7) given by me in the above RFV discussion are best taken as supporting the sense grapefruit (C. paradisi) whatever the flaws of historical nomenclature, but the other cites and links probably do not. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  08:51, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Lingo, could you give us exactly what the OED says? I don't know how to access it on line, and I don't have the print edition, and I'm tired of bugging my friend to tell me! I don't know what you mean by "sense 1" and "sense 3". Eric Kvaalen (talk) 10:58, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Sense 1 is "shaddock", sense 3 is "grapefruit". These are the OED's definitions:
 * a. In the East Indies, a synonym of the or  (Citrus grandis). b. In America, applied to the variety or sub-species of Citrus, also called ‘grapefruit’ and (in the English market) ‘forbidden fruit’. Also = . Also attrib.
 * I won't quote anything else as the rest of the entry is even more heavy in mark-up. The free online version omits the sense "grapefruit". ←₰-→  Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  11:11, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks Lingo. Does it give any dated quotes? Anyway, this supports what I've been saying, namely that "pomelo" does not mean "any of the citrus hybrids derived from" the shaddock, as our Wiktionary entry says. We have no support for saying that. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 12:29, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, quite a few, from the 1850s to the 1970s. Most either referred to C. grandis or were in my view at least somewhat ambiguous without additional context. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk)  12:43, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree that that we have not yet found any support for "any of the citrus hybrids derived from" the shaddock. If we ever find some we can add some similar phrase. In any event, there is plenty of ambiguity in the vernacular names of second-tier citrus fruits, not to mention the steady flow of hybridization. We don't have to add to the confusion. DCDuring (talk) 15:35, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I understand. Lingo, can you prove that "pomelo" was used for hybrids other than the grapefruit? And DC, when you say we shouldn't add to the confusion, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? (That we should just say "grapefruit" and not other hybrids.) Eric Kvaalen (talk) 15:51, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * We don't yet have any evidence that specifically supports any hybrid other than the grapefruit. I didn't come across any in my searches for cites supporting definition 3. I also haven't yet found any other dictionary or glossary that has such a definition. When, as, and if we get some evidence favoring such looser definition, we can add it or adjust an existing definition. DCDuring (talk) 20:12, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * But it also looks uncertain to me that some of the older sources specifically meant C. paradisi when using the term “grapefruit”. Before science-based taxonomic clarity arises and percolates to the general public, the use of common names for unfamiliar species tends to be all over the place, sometimes persisting long after the dust has settled. Just look at the confusion with the name  and in Portuguese with, or English versus .  --Lambiam 22:13, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * They probably meant something strongly resembling or ancestral to our C. paradisi. We don't have any pre-Linnean cites in our entry. I'm unprepared to dismiss pre-DNA taxonomy, botany, and horticulture as unscientific. It has taken a long time for biology to operationalize the evolutionary species concept, but pre-DNA taxonomy has value, at least until proven inadequate.
 * It is instructive to try to understand how various species (or forms, varieties, etc of species) got the names (both vernacular and scientific) they have had. That's one reason to have images, etymologies etc. DCDuring (talk) 01:18, 19 October 2019 (UTC)


 * So if I understand DCDuring correctly, we need to change our definition #3, because right now it does refer to other hybrids. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 08:27, 22 October 2019 (UTC)